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NEC PC-Engine/SuperGrafx => PC Engine/SuperGrafx Discussion => Topic started by: spenoza on May 15, 2011, 08:20:22 AM
Title: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on May 15, 2011, 08:20:22 AM
I want the community's opinion on what some of the biggest missed opportunities were for the PCE. What games were begging for a PCE port but inexplicably missed out? What major market moves did Hudson/NEC completely fail to predict or later take hold of? Were there any companies Hudson and NEC failed adequately to court or partner with?
I think Capcom missed the bus with the system, supporting Nintendo and Sega extensively but for some reason relying on NEC Avenue to provide Capcom titles for the PCE. Konami didn't develop as effusively for the system as they did for others, but at least they did develop directly and did a darn good job of it. Sunsoft and Natsume did lots of great action games for the NES but didn't migrate to the PCE with the same productivity or enthusiasm. Sure, there were a couple here and there, but it would have been nice to have had the same selection of rockin'-soundtracked action games.
Wandering into pipe dream territory, the original Rastan would have been a pretty cool port for the PCE, as would the arcade game Silkworm, though given how the Ninja Gaiden port on the PCE suffered maybe it was a good thing Silkworm never got ported.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 15, 2011, 08:31:48 AM
I would have liked to have seen a conversion of Magic Sword on hucard, and perhaps a conversion of Mortal Kombat for ACD.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: geise on May 15, 2011, 08:51:29 AM
Any CPS-1 game port NOT by NEC Avenue. I personally would've loved a port of Final Fight.
I also thought Viewpoint could've been done on the Arcade card quite well.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 15, 2011, 09:53:24 AM
There weren't enough first person RPGs. We got the Wizardry series, two M&Ms, .... but no Bards Tale. no Ultimas. No other Goldbox games. Just OotG, and that one kinda blew.
Ultima would have been awesome on PCE. Ultima Exodus especially. I guess the lack of First person RPGs was a culture thing.
There was a severe lack of Capcom. Konami aside from Shooters was another missed opportunity. Bayou Birry, Contra, more castlevanias, metal gear... we really couldve used that stuff.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Black Tiger on May 15, 2011, 11:58:59 AM
There weren't enough first person RPGs. We got the Wizardry series, two M&Ms, .... but no Bards Tale. no Ultimas. No other Goldbox games. Just OotG, and that one kinda blew.
Ultima would have been awesome on PCE. Ultima Exodus especially. I guess the lack of First person RPGs was a culture thing.
There was a severe lack of Capcom. Konami aside from Shooters was another missed opportunity. Bayou Birry, Contra, more castlevanias, metal gear... we really couldve used that stuff.
You might not love them all, but there is Dragon Knight I & II, Lady Sword, Death Bringer, Double Dungeons, Dungeon Master, Laplace No Ma, Madou Monogatari, Out Live and Megami Tensei Sin.
But it sounds like you wanted more western RPGs than anything.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: apachacha on May 15, 2011, 12:30:41 PM
Honestly I think it might have been the unreleased sequel to Cocoron. If anyone here doesn't know the original NES title, it's a non linear game where you create your own characters from parts (sometimes making realy bizarre combinations) and then set up their weapons from a small selection. You could make a new character after defeating each boss.
Somehow, expanding on this formula as well as updating the graphics/visuals would have made it a realy great platform title, one of which the system had not enough in my opinion.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 15, 2011, 12:40:35 PM
But it sounds like you wanted more western RPGs than anything.
Yes. I like all of those games mentioned but they still have that distinct Japanese RPG style to them.
The goldbox series, and Ultima games would have been awesome. The really in depth adventure games. Thats what was lacking. Much like how the C64/Amiga lacked JRPG style games and all they had was obnoxious adventure games.
At least the PCE did indeed get some of both. I would have loved to see World of Xeen on the PCE CD. It clearly was doable, as its the same engine as Isles of Terra.
and, Order of the griffon proved they could do the gold box games. a CD version of any of the Forgotten Realms games would have made me wet myself. Curse of the Azure Bonds especially.
or like its been said, Ultima III.
I do plan to remake Ultima II, and plan to try doing it on multiple platforms because its an Ultima with a sweet story, but terrible implementation.
Also, Dungeon Master is barely an RPG. It's more like a puzzle game to me.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on May 15, 2011, 01:21:16 PM
Clearly it lacked in some good side scrolling brawlers. Final Fight at the start of the SGFX would have been so awesome. Also some high speed super fast action jump'n run would have been fun to see on the pce.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 15, 2011, 01:24:57 PM
What about Genji Tsushin Agedama???
We really got screwed with the lack of Contra. Thats like the biggest punch in the nuts ever.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on May 15, 2011, 01:40:47 PM
No other Goldbox games. Just OotG, and that one kinda blew.
OotG is awesome.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Mathius on May 15, 2011, 06:34:38 PM
I would have liked to have seen some side-scrolling action/adventure platformers in the vein of Metroid. A game with well thought out item progression would have rocked!
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SamIAm on May 15, 2011, 06:41:47 PM
Basically, platformers. Specifically, modern platformers. I love what's there, but whenever I fire up Sonic 3 or Yoshi's Island, I think "this is what's missing on the PCE".
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: RR1980 on May 15, 2011, 06:47:34 PM
well Jackie Chan and New Adventure Island are pretty awesome platformers but you are right that it never had that one big blockbuster like Super Mario Bros or Sonic that would make people buy the system just for that title.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: apachacha on May 15, 2011, 06:52:25 PM
We really got screwed with the lack of Contra. Thats like the biggest punch in the nuts ever.
I like it.....until the final boss, the it just becomes a dick :P Mostly cause of the weird way you have to avoid lightning from hitting you even if you donn't touch the ground.
well Jackie Chan and New Adventure Island are pretty awesome platformers but you are right that it never had that one big blockbuster like Super Mario Bros or Sonic that would make people buy the system just for that title.
Well there's Bonk.
But I do feel a stunning lack of platformers for the system. Take for example games like Hagane, Run Saber etc. The only game similar to those that I even know off is The Ninja Warriors, and I always get killed almost instantly.
Also, Newzealand Story anyone ? That one's both weird and good.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nat on May 15, 2011, 07:14:44 PM
Faussete Amour (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Faussete Amour) is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.
Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 15, 2011, 07:15:14 PM
well Jackie Chan and New Adventure Island are pretty awesome platformers but you are right that it never had that one big blockbuster like Super Mario Bros or Sonic that would make people buy the system just for that title.
I already had the system, and I still didn't buy those games. The only reason why I had Bonk 1&2 was because they were pack-ins. I didn't get Bonk 3 until last year. There isn't really a shortage, per say, of platformers on PCE, there's just a shortage of anything better than a C+. Maybe Mario and Sonic are asking for too much, but what about Rystar, Rocket Knight, Heady, etc? Shit even Vector Man embarrasses most PCE platformers, most of which seem to be Wataru or Wonderboy hacks. Same floaty jumping arc, same shitty shops.
I'd say the biggest missed opportunity on the PCE was the fact that the last few years of the system were dominated almost entirely my menu driven games. Galget, RPGs, and Digital Comics, mainly. At the end we all had CD systems and Arcade Cards but if you wanted a shooter, a platformer, a beat-em-up, or even a sports game you had to go to the early CD or even HuCard era for any kind of selection. Of course, before eBay, this forum, etc it was really f*cking hard to find PCE games that weren't brand new so...there wasn't a lot of "action" in 1993, 94, 95.
Specifically, I guess I would have liked to see an Assault Suits series game for SCD. Given NCS Masiya's huge support of PCE its kind of odd there never was one.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SamIAm on May 15, 2011, 08:27:53 PM
Faussete Amour (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Faussete Amour) is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.
Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.
Ha ha, we have very different taste, my good man.:)
To me, Bonk is decent, but if I were making a list of my top 5 favorite games ever, Sonic 3 and Sonic CD would both be on there. I love Sonic 1, as well.
As for Valis and Faussete Amour, well, I think they sum up the PCE-CD in more ways than we'd like to admit - great visuals, but not a lot of good action to be found.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 15, 2011, 09:25:18 PM
A Mario game would be pathetically easy to make on the PCE, and a Sonic game not much harder. The fact that we didn't get any such high-quality titles is pretty much just attributed to the fact that Mario and Sonic were done by top in-house teams with huge budgets, and most PCE games were made by companies with very limited budgets, some of which were one-hit-wonders on the PCE. We really did need some better platformers... but I suppose the ones we got weren't terrible, with a few exceptions... but yeah, some killer ones would have been nice. Other platformers on the two other consoles were almost always made by companies with larger budgets, and with the knowledge that sales would come easy. The PCE never really had such a comfort zone, and the TG16 even less so. That might have contributed to the lackluster efforts of said C+ games. :)
Ristar would have been pretty easy to do. Same with Rocket Knight. I don't know enough about Dynamite Heady to make a judgement call there.
Hell though... I could make a kickass Mario game over the freakin' weekend... in fact, I think I was gonna a few weeks back... never did it though... dunno why, not enough challenge I suppose.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on May 15, 2011, 11:18:49 PM
I think what sums the PC Engine up in my opinion is "if you want something done ... get Hudson to do it".
IMO, Hudson have got the greatest stable of hits for the system, an extraordinary run rivalled only by Sega and Nintendo at the time. However what really hurt the PCE was the fact that Nintendo tried to strong-arm developers into developing only for their system. That's the reason there were so many NES-only titles - part of Ninty's "license" was "we'll let you develop for our system if you give us a cut, let us have the final say and promise not to develop that game for any other system.
And later, I think moving to CD so quickly undoubtedly hurt the Super Grafx, which really should have been the bees knees. everyone praises the CD system, but I own about 3 CD games, and I just see so many more great games in HuCard format :/
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: apachacha on May 15, 2011, 11:38:59 PM
Hell though... I could make a kickass Mario game over the freakin' weekend... in fact, I think I was gonna a few weeks back... never did it though... dunno why, not enough challenge I suppose.
You mean as in programing a new one, or just modify a previously used engine ?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 16, 2011, 03:07:41 AM
EDIT: oh wait, i never said IoT, but I said two M&Ms, same difference.
I liked the first M&M even though its all Anime'd up and a bit more "THIS IS WHAT YOU USE, DO IT. TOUGH IF YOU DONT LIKE". Kind of like OotG, only not as lame.
ootg is still good, but they left out the customization of the goldbox games and left the rest -_-
Quote
OotG is awesome.
That would be better if I wasnt stuck with generic party 9000
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Digi.k on May 16, 2011, 04:25:37 AM
would had loved more scrolling beat em ups and more racing games like outrun, victory run which I really do feel were lacking on the pc-e
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 16, 2011, 04:29:20 AM
Too bad we couldn't has battletoads.
We did get RCR though, and that's my favorite beat em up, lol.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 16, 2011, 05:13:16 AM
You mean as in programing a new one, or just modify a previously used engine ?
From the ground up. If I were to modify existing source, I could do it in a day. Of course, I'm referring to the code alone, since that's my department. :) That doesn't take into consideration the graphics and sound.
In any event, most platform games are composed of two major portions: finite state machines (FSMs, and not Flying Spaghetti Monsters either, though that would be teh jawsum :P), and collision detection (coldet). At the lowest level, that's all they are. Where they differ is in the level of coldet (some have additional collision types, such as platforms you can "jump up to") and the number and capabilities of the states (all platformers have "run around and jump around" but some have attack states, some have multiple attack states, some have special jump states and substates, etc etc etc etc). A basic player FSM can be coded in a couple of hours, even in assembly. Enemy FSMs tend to be simpler. Coldet is usually even easier, especially if you already have a robust mapping scheme and understand bounding boxes and thresholds. Of course, to do them well, you need to have not only experience but also skill... it's pretty easy to f*ck both of them up if you don't know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on May 16, 2011, 05:22:50 AM
Passing up on exclusive rights to Mortal Kombat was a heck of a missed opportunity; love it or hate it, that game sold like hot cakes and surely would've sold some systems too. Of course, one game couldn't have made a huge difference all by itself, but had the profits been used for effective marketing and/or bringing over additional popular titles, who knows how things might've ended?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on May 16, 2011, 05:29:42 AM
Quote
A basic player FSM can be coded in a couple of hours, even in assembly.
Yeah, but you really need to know what you're doing. Massively so. I haven't touched assembler since Devpac 2/3 on the Amiga, and it's certainly not something most people could do on a whim in a matter of hours. You'd need to live it, and who really does these days?
But yeah, if you have decent tools and reference Mario would be a snap as far as I can think. It does have nice jump physics though, I've always thought that.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Mathius on May 16, 2011, 05:37:17 AM
A basic player FSM can be coded in a couple of hours, even in assembly.
Yeah, but you really need to know what you're doing. Massively so. I haven't touched assembler since Devpac 2/3 on the Amiga, and it's certainly not something most people could do on a whim in a matter of hours. You'd need to live it, and who really does these days?
But yeah, if you have decent tools and reference Mario would be a snap as far as I can think. It does have nice jump physics though, I've always thought that.
I think our Rovie knows what he is doing I would assume. :)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 16, 2011, 05:48:07 AM
And later, I think moving to CD so quickly undoubtedly hurt the Super Grafx, which really should have been the bees knees. everyone praises the CD system, but I own about 3 CD games, and I just see so many more great games in HuCard format :/
The Supergrapfx was a terrible idea, or at least a terribly executed idea. It seems like a half-ass attempt by NEC to sell hardware without much though of WTF customers/developers/Hudson were supposed to do with it.
CD had way way more to offer us. When they invented it nobody had any clue we'd get something like Y's IV or Fatal Fury Special, but there they are...and you aren't doing that shit with a SGX (not without a really f*cking expensive/huge HuCard anyway). Obviously the SGX didn't see its full potential, but even if it had I just can't see it giving us much that was all that different from a standard PCE HuCard.
BWT, jeez, get more CD games! You have three? No wonder you don't think its so great.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 16, 2011, 05:59:40 AM
I wish the SGX would have become the de facto standard... the machine really is better, at least from a coder's point of view. Having two graphics chips and double the total VRAM is great, and four times the scratch RAM helps a LOT. Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity. :(
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on May 16, 2011, 06:11:56 AM
Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity. :(
Agreed. Just think if they'd stuffed the SGX hardware in the Duos.
Reading through this thread that was smething I was thinking about too. The SGX seemed to be thrown out the door the fend for itself and didn't get much support. Surely SGX + CDROM would have been able to pull off some better games. Not sure what the cost would have been but I'd really liked to have seen a game utilizing the combo of SGX + CD + Arcade Card. You probably could have made a killer port of Mortal Kombat that would have put all other console ports to shame. Not to mention all the other great games that may have been possible.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 16, 2011, 09:01:58 AM
and not to mention how much the whole setup would cost. :D
but, yeah it would rule.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: ceti alpha on May 16, 2011, 09:08:19 AM
Faussete Amour (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Faussete Amour) is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.
Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.
Fausette Amour does look quite nice. But yeah, Valis, Axe, Bonk, NAI and even Ghouls 'n Ghosts if you want to cheat a little and include the SGX, are all great platformers. I would also take Bonk over Sonic, any day. I'd probably take Bonk over Super Mario Bros 3, as well. So, I don't think there was a massive shortage of great platformers, but more would have been nice. A Contra port really would have been awesome.
A few more beat 'em ups would have been nice, since all we really have are Double Dragon, Riot Zone and River City Ransom.
A few Phantasy Star 4 type of RPGs would have been nice, as well.
All-in-all, if you Google "best Genesis games" and look at some of the lists, it certainly doesn't make you want to trade in your PCE/TG. It does come up short in a couple of departments, but overall, I wouldn't change too much.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on May 16, 2011, 10:17:15 AM
Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity. :(
Agreed. Just think if they'd stuffed the SGX hardware in the Duos.
Reading through this thread that was smething I was thinking about too. The SGX seemed to be thrown out the door the fend for itself and didn't get much support. Surely SGX + CDROM would have been able to pull off some better games. Not sure what the cost would have been but I'd really liked to have seen a game utilizing the combo of SGX + CD + Arcade Card. You probably could have made a killer port of Mortal Kombat that would have put all other console ports to shame. Not to mention all the other great games that may have been possible.
I'd be afraid to touch something like that, in fear of accidentaly blowing up the world :P
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 16, 2011, 11:04:13 AM
Faussete Amour (http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Faussete Amour) is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.
Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.
Ha ha, we have very different taste, my good man.:)
Agreed.
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To me, Bonk is decent, but if I were making a list of my top 5 favorite games ever, Sonic 3 and Sonic CD would both be on there. I love Sonic 1, as well.
Sonic CD is the only worthwhile Sonic IMO, not to derail the thread, but only to clarify my earlier statement about choosing Bonk > Sonic. I'm not sure any of the Bonk games OR Sonic CD would make my top 5 favorite games ever, however.
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As for Valis and Faussete Amour, well, I think they sum up the PCE-CD in more ways than we'd like to admit - great visuals, but not a lot of good action to be found.
I'll disagree again here. The Valis series certainly has its low points (*cough* Valis II), but there is plenty of great action to be found in the rest of the games. Maybe super-high-speed runs through levels are a prerequisite for "good" action for you, but not me.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 16, 2011, 01:59:06 PM
Regarding the SGX surviving long enough to be built into Duos...
Shit like this never works, and this would have been no exception. In many ways the SGX dying as bizarrely fast as it did (I'm sure it was effectively killed before it was even released) was a blessing.
If the SGX had taken off, then we would have been in a tricky situation. Were previous owners of PCE systems supposed to basically bin their old systems purchased just two years earlier? That would suck, especially considering the price of the SGX, and the CDROM2 (planed from the begining) combined. I'm pretty sure sales of PCE in that early period were some of the best the system ever saw too. It would have been suicidal to shit on that customer base.
Of course the developers could have made everything a Darius style hybrid HuCard, but everyone who understands the concept of rational thinking knows that this wouldn't have been worth it either. For the SGX's super powers to truly be taken advantage of you'd need to build the games from the ground up to be the best they could be. A hybrid card isn't going to make the most of either system. Software designed to scale up and down to different power levels and configurations always suffers. The biggest advantage of consoles is that you know EXACTLY what every user has so you can make the absolute most of the hardware, down to last byte and CPU cycle. A hybrid HuCard is going to lack running under one or both modes.
The SGX shits in the face of the entire "core" concept that the PCE was based arround. You can't upgrade to the SGX like you can with different system cards or CDROM addons. You have to chuck your 25,000 yen system and buy another one, and for what? Power upgrades that to this day haven't been proven to really be worth two shits, let alone another $200 on top of the price of another PCE (most of the hardware in which, owners of standard PCEs already bought once). If SGX capabilities were something that could be added to any PCE, and eventually incorporate into Duos for free (like the Super System eventually was) then yeah, f*ck yeah, obviously that would have been awesome. Unfortunately the dipshits that created the SGX made a setup where that was impossible.
The SGX died so that we could have a non-fragmented user base during the SuperCD and HuCard eras, and it was totally worth it. The best PCE soft came during the periods when most users were all on the same page, hardware-wise. The PCE already has the most confusing matrix of system configurations in history, adding SGXCD, SGXSCD, and SGXACD to that list would have meant less customers, less software, and probably, honestly, worse software.
Also, f*ck Mortal Kombat. It would have sold a few systems in America, sure, but then what? MK2, MK3, f*ck that. Some things just aren't worth the psychic price.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 16, 2011, 03:05:47 PM
Did not the SuperCD "fragment" the CDROM userbase? Not a hell of a lot of difference.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: lord_cack on May 16, 2011, 03:14:24 PM
I think, to be perfectly honest, the biggest opportunity to have "the biggest lost opportunity" for the PCE has yet to happen, and can be prevented.
Mind Rec, Aetherbyte, Frozen Utopia....
A few years back Mind Rec gave us 2 game, Implode and Meteor Blast. But they have PC Gunjin in the works, an RPG.
A couple of years ago Aetherbyte released Insanity and is working on Retrocade, a collection of Classic Arcade Remakes. Making nice strides in just getting NEW Turbo/PCE material out there. Also, I'm sure Arkhan has the potential to do more games.
Frozen Utopia has Mysterious Song Remake, and a Platformer, Jungle Bros. in the works. I also know for a fact that those aren't the only titles that Frozen Utopia has the potential to make.
So really, I think the greatest potential loss for the Turbo has yet to happen. The loss of some great games that have yet to be released for this system.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 16, 2011, 03:20:12 PM
Frozen Utopia also has a brawler in the vein of Final Fight in the works, for those people who crave a good scrap.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nectarsis on May 16, 2011, 03:25:04 PM
A few years back Mind Rec gave us 2 game, Implode and Meteor Blast. But they have PC Gunjin in the works, an RPG.
I don't remember hearing/seeing about their RPG. Last I heard the other 2 are aiming more at the 360 (and MAYBE still for the PCE).
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 16, 2011, 03:37:21 PM
They announced an RPG a number of years back but nothing ever came of it. As far as I know, MindRec has already pretty much left the PCE scene and is doing the 360 and I think mobile stuff now.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: grahf on May 16, 2011, 03:40:58 PM
I disagree about the SGX, Rover. I completely understand where you're coming from as a dev, but that thing was destined to failure. From a consumer standpoint.
I don't think the PCE had any huge missed opportunities, but I vote for Mortal Kombat as the biggest missed opportunity for the TG16. A LOT of my classmates bought a Genesis just because it had the "better" version of MK. Most of them already had a SNES. In my area it was Mortal Kombat, not Sonic 2, that pushed the Genesis ahead of the SNES for a bit. Mortal Kombat was absolutely huge at the arcades, and I didn't know anyone who didn't have it for a home system when it came out. It was one of the first games that made kids from all over my neighborhood get together for gaming sessions. Sonic 2 was an amazing game to have IF you had a Genesis, but you HAD to have a Genesis to play the cool version of Mortal Kombat.
I can imagine massive sales of TurgoGrafx if they didn't pass that one up.... The system was already selling for way cheaper than the Genesis and SNES, so it would have made a difference for sure.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 16, 2011, 05:22:48 PM
Did not the SuperCD "fragment" the CDROM userbase? Not a hell of a lot of difference.
Yes, things were plenty fragmented by the end, but there is a huge difference.
Everyone wanted a CDROM system. Those that didn't buy one left PCE for SFC, but those that did pretty much all got a Super System Card eventually. Eventually, with the except of a small number of ACD releases, active PCE consumers were buying the same format of game, SCDs, and they could be played on PCE, CG, CGII, LT, Duo, Duo R, Duo RX, Laseractive, and even the SGX.
If the SGX became mainstream there is no doubt that SGX functionality would have been built into Duos, and cheaper Core systems further down the line, but the early systems would have been useless. Not just the white PCE but the Core Grafx also which was on sale at the same time as the SGX. WTF were they thinking? One of them had to be cut lose. Because the SGX was abandoned ALL systems could play ALL (non-SGX) HuCards, right up until the end. Formation Soccer, when it was released in 1994, was just as playable on a 1987 PCE as it was on any other PCE system. All systems that could play any CD could play all CDs with the right card. This is one of the coolest things about PCE, IMO.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: ceti alpha on May 16, 2011, 05:25:24 PM
Damn. Who knew that the PCE/TG was Android of the day with all the "fragmentation". lol
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 16, 2011, 05:32:55 PM
I don't think any platform in history has ever been as fragmented as Android. It makes Windows look like the NES.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SamIAm on May 16, 2011, 05:34:26 PM
The Mortal Kombat fiasco probably ranks up there with the biggest fumbled deals in video game history. I, too, remember the MK craze, and I can name 4 people off the top of my head who definitely would have bought a TG16 if it had been the only way to play the home port.
Also, I'm going to join in and say that the SGX was a terrible idea. Remember how Sega went to the doghouse when they released the Saturn right after the 32X and burned everyone who bought one of those? They were making fun of Sega and the 32X on Saturday Night Live, for heaven's sake. The technology and the potential of the SGX is exciting, but it really doesn't make much market sense.
If you want to talk about never releasing the PCE and making the SGX NEC's base system from the start, that's a different story.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: RR1980 on May 16, 2011, 06:35:32 PM
I am not that familiar with the TG16's history was TG16 like "this close" from getting a MK port? what was the story there?
My guess is that NEC probably didn't anticipate the success of the PC Engine so they had the SGX in development to replace the PC Engine right from the get go but came time to release it 2 yrs later they were kinda caught in the middle since much resources already went into developing this thing they can't not release it but at the same time the pce was having huge success so they ended up doing what they did which was released it but abandoned it almost right the way. NEC would run into this situation once again when it came time to release the PCFX and that time they decided to delay it by a year which also ended up hurting them and ultimately ended NEC's role as a gaming hardware company.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on May 16, 2011, 06:56:47 PM
I'll disagree again here. The Valis series certainly has its low points (*cough* Valis II), but there is plenty of great action to be found in the rest of the games. Maybe super-high-speed runs through levels are a prerequisite for "good" action for you, but not me.
The biggest problem with the Valis series, and many of the other PCE platformers, is that the control feels stiff and finicky. In Mario games you know when you're at the edge of a platform, and as was mentioned earlier, Nintendo got the jumping nailed. In the Valis games I always felt like I was fighting my own character's movement and controls as much as I was the enemy. Valis exemplifies this problem, though it's by no means the only PCE game that suffers from it. Lots of NES games had this problem as well, but after a couple years devs seemed to wrap their heads around it and many companies, even smaller ones, were getting jumping, hit boxes, and platform edges mostly right. Meanwhile PCE devs weren't working with platformers so much.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on May 16, 2011, 07:01:11 PM
Regarding the SGX surviving long enough to be built into Duos...
Shit like this never works, and this would have been no exception. In many ways the SGX dying as bizarrely fast as it did (I'm sure it was effectively killed before it was even released) was a blessing.
If the SGX had taken off, then we would have been in a tricky situation. Were previous owners of PCE systems supposed to basically bin their old systems purchased just two years earlier? That would suck, especially considering the price of the SGX, and the CDROM2 (planed from the begining) combined. I'm pretty sure sales of PCE in that early period were some of the best the system ever saw too. It would have been suicidal to shit on that customer base.
That is certainly one possibility, but what about this other possibility... What if the CD-ROM attachment had included extra hardware capabilities, like the extra hardware in the SGX. Could the expansion port have allowed for this? What if the stock CD unit basically upgraded the system? Under those circumstances the only people who would have been left out would be people who don't buy a CD-ROM upgrade. That might have been a way around all this. Given how expensive the CD-ROM was upon release, adding in some extra power would likely not have had a major impact on the peripheral's price, assuming it's technically possible.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on May 16, 2011, 08:59:37 PM
Where do you even BEGIN to list the PCE/TG16's missed opportunities??? There are so many! As was mentioned previously in this thread, the SuperGrafx in and of itself a was a HUGE missed opportunity. Maybe not in Japan. That thing was going to fail there, no matter what. But if they'd have delayed the US release a few months and released the SGX here in the US with, say, 50+ quality PCE games, the western market (for the most part) wouldn't have even known any better that it was derived from inferior hardware. Then you'd have a situation where the PCE was still getting plenty of support in Japan and the SGX would have been getting support in the west, similar to the Genesis (assuming NEC America would have marketed the thing properly, which is an awfully big assumption).
As for software, the list is basically endless... the PCE never got a Contra game (seriously, Konami?). A proper conversion of the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles arcade game would have filled the beat-em-up gap quite nicely. As would a conversion of the Battle Toads arcade game (it even used one of the PCE's native res modes, 512x224). Final Fight as a 8 or 12Mbit HuCard would have been pretty faithful, I'd imagine. Mortal Kombat was originally planned as a PCE *exclusive* but NEC's higher-ups turned it down because they thought the fighting game genre was losing steam (just... lol). A proper conversion by Irem of R-Type II would have been nice, and completely doable on the PCE. Black Tiger would also have been dead simple on the PCE using the SAME engine Capcom used for Son Son II (seriously, go play them both back-to-back... they're essentially the same game). And, yea, the platformer library on the PCE was seriously lacking. Also, not that I'm a huge sports game fan or anything, but some greater support by EA would have done wonders for the western market. They finally threw TTI a bone in '93 when they made Madden Duo Football or whatever it was (it was essentially a CD-ROM version of Madden '93), but by then it was too little, too late.
Then there are the quality Jp region games that never made it to the states. That list is quite long as well. Rondo of Blood, Gradius I/II, Salamander, Spriggan, Kaze Kiri, SFII' CE. It goes on and on...
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: grahf on May 16, 2011, 09:04:22 PM
Spenoza, that would have definitely been the way to go, but I don't think they could have done it AND managed to get the CD-ROM2 to market as early as they did.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: RR1980 on May 16, 2011, 09:05:46 PM
wow MK as a PCE exclusive? That would have been a seriously game changer! They thought fighters were on their way out and yet they did all those neo geo fighter port? How wrong were they considering that the fighters genre only got bigger and bigger in the following decade!
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on May 16, 2011, 09:14:20 PM
The PCE deserved at least three contras.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: RR1980 on May 16, 2011, 09:34:21 PM
BWT, jeez, get more CD games! You have three? No wonder you don't think its so great.
I can't think of anything else I want :/ Oh, I have 4, I forgot Neo Metal fantasy. And I can't play 2 of them cos my arcade card still hasn't arrived yet. Hit Japan is way faster that Game of Japan ):|
But yeah, any suggestions based on what I have already (in my sig) go for it.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on May 16, 2011, 09:38:55 PM
yup "contra", "super contra" and "F yeah it's Contra again mofo"!
I would say contra (arcade port), Contra Spirits (but in better) and Contra teh hardcore (with much better colors) 8)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on May 16, 2011, 09:53:08 PM
To be honest, there are some good points RE missed chances with regard to conversions, but personally, I guess the large number of PCE only titles is what draws me to the system more than anything.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 16, 2011, 09:59:24 PM
at least the fragmentation of the CD/SCD base involved a single card. Sure there were the Duos and SCD add on, but really it was just a card separating CD and SCD users.
Fragmentation of PCE/SGX is an entire system. Sure it's backwards compatible, but it still costs money. A lot of it.
The SGX should have just been an add on. Buy it if you want it. Would have sold better as a click-on for the PCE, and would have cost less..
and screw mortal kombat. Im glad that shitty game never showed up on our turbob. Its retarded. We got SF2, we don't need herky jerk 90s fighters with stupid looking characters wearing halloween costumes.
If Rare would have devved for PCE, that would have added alot of nice games. But, werent they like not allowed during the NES days because of Nintendo's douchery?
Im curious why Konami bitched out on us. They could've given us a lot of stuff. Was that more of Nintendo's doing? lets kill them!
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on May 16, 2011, 10:39:46 PM
@Arkhan, I can't find it, but there was an interview with someone at Hudson on the final days of Hudson and where it went wrong. I think it was on Sega16, but it may have been put up in the period wiped out by the hacking attack.
In the meantime, this is pretty interesting (albeit in PDF format). It does not, however shed any light on the Konami situation (yet - haven't read part 2). http://www.meanmachinesmag.co.uk/upload/media/scans/HudsonRG_Part1.pdf
Ohh, this might be it (in a different format) http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1578/hudsons_revenge__looking_forward_.php
Nah, that's not it. I think it was John Greiner interviewed though, but there's a ton of interviews out there with him.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on May 16, 2011, 10:41:26 PM
at least konami gave us the best akumajo dracula in the whole 8/16bit era, and that by a very far. the konami shooters are also top ace ware, and a xexex was even planed. there really was only a contra thats missing from their side. uh oh and well, may be also a nice ganbare goemon j'n'r like the 2nd one on SFC. and sunset riders and mystic warriors and monster maulers and and and..
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: ceti alpha on May 17, 2011, 12:13:55 AM
Regarding the SGX surviving long enough to be built into Duos...
Shit like this never works, and this would have been no exception. In many ways the SGX dying as bizarrely fast as it did (I'm sure it was effectively killed before it was even released) was a blessing.
If the SGX had taken off, then we would have been in a tricky situation. Were previous owners of PCE systems supposed to basically bin their old systems purchased just two years earlier? That would suck, especially considering the price of the SGX, and the CDROM2 (planed from the begining) combined. I'm pretty sure sales of PCE in that early period were some of the best the system ever saw too. It would have been suicidal to shit on that customer base.
That is certainly one possibility, but what about this other possibility... What if the CD-ROM attachment had included extra hardware capabilities, like the extra hardware in the SGX. Could the expansion port have allowed for this? What if the stock CD unit basically upgraded the system? Under those circumstances the only people who would have been left out would be people who don't buy a CD-ROM upgrade. That might have been a way around all this. Given how expensive the CD-ROM was upon release, adding in some extra power would likely not have had a major impact on the peripheral's price, assuming it's technically possible.
Yeah, that would have been great, and that's what the MegaCD was, essentially. Unfortunately adding hardware as major as additional processors with direct memory access isn't possible on the PCE, let along economically feasible. The add-on was already $600 after all.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 17, 2011, 06:15:43 AM
Where do you even BEGIN to list the PCE/TG16's missed opportunities??? There are so many! As was mentioned previously in this thread, the SuperGrafx in and of itself a was a HUGE missed opportunity. Maybe not in Japan. That thing was going to fail there, no matter what. But if they'd have delayed the US release a few months and released the SGX here in the US with, say, 50+ quality PCE games, the western market (for the most part) wouldn't have even known any better that it was derived from inferior hardware. Then you'd have a situation where the PCE was still getting plenty of support in Japan and the SGX would have been getting support in the west, similar to the Genesis (assuming NEC America would have marketed the thing properly, which is an awfully big assumption).
With 50+ quality SGX games, yes, it very well could have been a success in America, but where do you get the 50+ million dollars to make such stuff? The weirdly huge success of the Genesis in the US happened with a library that was *heavily* US influenced. The EA sports stuff and MK with a lot of Sonic...and quite a few of the Sonic games were US developed.
Its not really a "missed opourtunity" if it could only happen in a parallel universe, at that point its just a fantasy.
Two things make this impossible 1) where the hell are those 50 games going to come from when even the Japanese only had 6, and they were not even slightly impressive 2) Americans are cheap-asses and the Japanese, especially back then, will buy almost any gadget you throw at them. If they didn't buy the SGX nobody would.
BTW, I am SO glad that never happened. I would have loved to see the TG16 succeed by being what it was, but having it transformed into a sleezy Football/Mortal Kombat machine. Oh lord. Good taste is a hurdle to be leaped, not limboed under!
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on May 17, 2011, 06:22:17 AM
As far as I know, adding the SGX via the expansion port was in fact possible to do. Adding it via the hucard slot might not have been doable though. I think it was Charles who proposed a method of doing it via the expansion port... since the expansion port is apparently directly connected to all the relevant hardware. Of course, there's other things you could do with the hucard port... you could add additional RAM (doesn't Populous do this?), additional CPUs (we were talking on IRC awhile back about adding a V810), sound circuitry (though it'd be monaural), etc... the hucard port offers a lot of the capability of the expansion port, just not everything.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 17, 2011, 06:43:08 AM
wow MK as a PCE exclusive? That would have been a seriously game changer! They thought fighters were on their way out and yet they did all those neo geo fighter port? How wrong were they considering that the fighters genre only got bigger and bigger in the following decade!
Well, at best the MK deal would have been a nice foot in the door, but there is a good chance that it wouldn't have made them any money. MK eventually came out on five systems, for Midway/Aklaim/whoever to have made the kind of money they wanted to, the exclusivity fee for NEC would have had to have been HUGE, probably a money loser in itself even if the system really did take off, and there is plenty of reason to suspect that it would't have. Players already would have had to buy a new system but also two new controllers to have enough buttons, but also a multitap. Most MK players are extremely casual and aren't going to drop that kind of bread.
Also, the Mk1 fad brought huge numbers to the Genesis platform for years on, but that was due to other factors. More people already had Genesis, the Genesis was already famous for having better sports games, the Genesis had Sonic. The MK thing really piggybacked on top of that...and it was fragile hype, even then. Only MK1 was better on Genesis, after that the SNES version had all the gory shit the arcade and Genesis versions had. It was too late by that point though and the far uglier Genesis versions stayed the standard because...I think MK fans can't read, maybe? :)
The hoard of SNK fighters that were eventually released in Japan weren't part of an expensive exclusivity deal. Also, and this isn't mentioned, they were Japanese games. No circa 1992 Japanese executive would have made that MK deal if even it wasn't fiscal suicide. MK doesn't sell in Japan. Its oiled up white trash muscle men ripping each others intensities out. Its (barely) interactive snuff porn, as far removed from Fatal Fury as it from Faces of Death: The Game.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 17, 2011, 06:58:30 AM
The supergrafx could be added via an expansion port doodad clicker onner... it would just be a video add on for the most part.
And anyway, you could add a new CPU via expansion slot anyways. Check out the SuperCPU for C64.
Thing shoves into the back of that piece of crap, making it a faster piece of crap!
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on May 17, 2011, 10:08:26 AM
Where do you even BEGIN to list the PCE/TG16's missed opportunities??? There are so many! As was mentioned previously in this thread, the SuperGrafx in and of itself a was a HUGE missed opportunity. Maybe not in Japan. That thing was going to fail there, no matter what. But if they'd have delayed the US release a few months and released the SGX here in the US with, say, 50+ quality PCE games, the western market (for the most part) wouldn't have even known any better that it was derived from inferior hardware. Then you'd have a situation where the PCE was still getting plenty of support in Japan and the SGX would have been getting support in the west, similar to the Genesis (assuming NEC America would have marketed the thing properly, which is an awfully big assumption).
With 50+ quality SGX games, yes, it very well could have been a success in America, but where do you get the 50+ million dollars to make such stuff? The weirdly huge success of the Genesis in the US happened with a library that was *heavily* US influenced. The EA sports stuff and MK with a lot of Sonic...and quite a few of the Sonic games were US developed.
Its not really a "missed opourtunity" if it could only happen in a parallel universe, at that point its just a fantasy.
Two things make this impossible 1) where the hell are those 50 games going to come from when even the Japanese only had 6, and they were not even slightly impressive 2) Americans are cheap-asses and the Japanese, especially back then, will buy almost any gadget you throw at them. If they didn't buy the SGX nobody would.
BTW, I am SO glad that never happened. I would have loved to see the TG16 succeed by being what it was, but having it transformed into a sleezy Football/Mortal Kombat machine. Oh lord. Good taste is a hurdle to be leaped, not limboed under!
I wasn't talking about 50+ newly developed SGX games. I was talking about releasing the SGX in the US with 50+ ALREADY EXISTING PCE games, at launch. The average US consumer, at the time, wouldn't have known any different that those games were developed in Japan for a slightly inferior system. All people would have known here is that a system was launching with 50 or even 100 killer games, right out of the gate, and they meant business. Oh, and BTW, i'm not talking about the ubiquitous bullshit software that trickled into the US market for the first year. Think about all the Jp HuCards that were released by 1990 that you'd rate at 7+ out of 10. Consider ALL those games being available at launch in the US. Now THAT'S a strong system launch.
As for the system being an MK/sports machine, you're missing my point. If games like MK and Madden had reached the US market, it would have contributed GREATLY to the success of the system in the west, and you'd have seen much better third party support for the system (because it would have been far more popular and had a larger user base). Perhaps, then you'd have seen more things Contra, Final Fight, Rocket Knight, Gunstar Heroes, etc., not to mention English translations of all the games that never reached US shores, but should have (Dracula X, Gradius, Gradius II, Salamander, SF2' CE...)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: ccovell on May 17, 2011, 11:02:22 AM
My guess is that NEC probably didn't anticipate the success of the PC Engine so they had the SGX in development to replace the PC Engine right from the get go but came time to release it 2 yrs later they were kinda caught in the middle since much resources already went into developing this thing...
The SGX was announced as a cynical way to defuse the pressure on the PCE by the upcoming Super Famicom, and newly-released Mega Drive. It was a rush job in reaction to these newer, superior systems that had 2 background planes and other hyped features. It looks like NEC made Hudson slap together an update as fast as possible with little regard to advancing the technology, really. The SGX is so similar technically to the PCE that it didn't take many resources at all to design the thing. Now the Power Console attachment, that's another story...
Just like systems such as the Apple III (and 32X), the SGX was "designed" by corporate.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: awack on May 17, 2011, 11:19:34 AM
As people have suggested, the biggest lost opportunity was not having an over hyped, crap game, like MK or DKC.
I agree with fragmare..more of these games(and sports) would have meant more of the less popular but better games. I'm personally glad that didn't happen, it might have meant hundreds of sports games and generic platformers, at the cost of being the best system for shooters....and as turns out, shmups hold up a hell of allot better than most platformers and all sports titles.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 17, 2011, 01:54:35 PM
If we would've gotten mortal kombat and EA sports games, the system would have been way more popular in the US.
The average Americunt wanted to play shitty sports games and moronic fighters, apparently.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on May 17, 2011, 03:16:30 PM
Spenoza, that would have definitely been the way to go, but I don't think they could have done it AND managed to get the CD-ROM2 to market as early as they did.
Well, the CD-ROM attachment beat the SGX to market by a year or so... I'm not sure the CD-ROM would have suffered much by a delay of a year, given that, with few exceptions, the earliest CD-ROM games were less than stunning in every department except audio.
Given the SGX was possibly a very quick project, they might not even have known at the time the CD-ROM was released that the SGX was anywhere in the cards. Then again, if the stand-alone SGX early concept had been scrapped in favor of a CD-based SGX upgrade unit, it might have been easier for owners to swallow. I would also gather that with the rapid popularization of CD technology at the time that there would have been enough manufacturing process, technology, and part cost reductions in the intervening year since the CD-ROM addon's initial release that the SGX technology could have been rolled in without increasing the cost of the attachment.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 17, 2011, 03:23:57 PM
I think the SGX didn't offer enough to encourage development when you have massive CDs to throw games on. I mean, Cosmic Fantasy 3, cmon.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on May 17, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
I think the SGX didn't offer enough to encourage development when you have massive CDs to throw games on. I mean, Cosmic Fantasy 3, cmon.
Ah, but what if you could have both? Seriously! The limited CD RAM would still have been a limitation, but having more VRAM and main RAM available could have been a very good thing.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: TheOldMan on May 17, 2011, 05:35:52 PM
Quote
having more VRAM and main RAM availablecouldwould have been a very good thing.
Yeah, with more VRAM, we could load a bigger BAT and more graphics to boot. Larger screen, better animation on larger characters. <sigh> More main memory would allow tracking more objects, and probably better AI for objects. What could have been......
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Bonknuts on May 18, 2011, 03:09:59 AM
Missed opportunities....
There are a ton, hardware wise. We know from articles and interviews that the PC-Engine itself was always destined for more than what it was released as. The PCE by itself was nick named the 'core' system. The CD addon was in development and show cased even before the system was officially released. But onto specifics.
- Lack of adequate core ram. More than just speculation, it's believed that the PCE original was developed with 32k of ram in mind, but only shipped with 8k. The upper 24k is just the 8k mirrored, not open bus. Fittingly, the SGX actually populates this mirrored ram with the additional 24k to make the original 32k ram. 8k of ram is limiting. It limits the type of compression schemes you can use. It limits caching decompressed data for later parts of levels (instead of doing it real time).
- The cut back of vram to 64k. The VDC has full access to 128k of vram. The arcade Bloody Wolf which is basically just a PCE without a VCE, has that full 128k. It has all the player and enemy frames loaded in. Having larger vram space also means you can use better compression schemes and cache the frames into vram (like you would normal ram). I would have put more emphasis on this than regular system ram. Especially when you consider the CD addon original only gave 64k of work ram (simulated cart rom).
- The lack of any second BG layer. Scrollable or fixed overlay/underlay. The PCE is setup to have a digital pixel bus to another device. That type of setup is used in quite a bit of arcades system, to mix different layers of different video chips. In the context of the PCE, the VCE is almost a waste. Bloody Wolf gets by just fine without it. It makes me wonder if something else was planned but cut. Maybe the SGX was closer to the original PCE design, but was cut down due to costs.
- Audio. It's not surprise to me that the stock audio isn't miles ahead of the NES or even home computers at the time. The CD addon was more than likely to be their key marketing advantage. The difference of chips tunes like the PCE has, to that of CDDA audio - only strengthens the CD addon's value. There are upgrades that can be done via cart (mono input being one of them), but also a higher res timer. You can use the scanline interrupt (all 262 lines) to make 16khz audio, but it's rather expensive. An external timer that you resync on vblank INT would be perfect. It could even digitally mix channels for you and output them on two 5bit channels (10bit output), etc. But of course, hucards were replaced with dominant CD format fairly earlier on. The real mist opportunity is on CD games. You have 6 channels to use at once to make some really unique and great sound FX, yet more settled back on generic/typical PSG-ish tiny type SFX.
- CD addon memory. The original CD addon memory was DRAM. DRAM is/was much less expensive than SRAM. Yet they only included a measly 64k. With only 64k of vram, 64k of simulated cart space is pathetic. They should have gone at least with 128k. At least that. It ended up costing them more in the long run because the there is no /RDY for DRAM interface on the cart port (on the expansion bus), so the 192k upgrade ram on the SCD card is SRAM. Much more expensive than DRAM. They should have started out with 192k or 256k of DRAM to begin with. I mean, considering the cost of everything else in the CD addon base ( the MCU, the cd drive logic, the ADPCM IC + ADPCM ram) - it would have been relatively low.
- VDC. The VDC in the PCE (basically THEE video chip) spends quite a bit of time doing nothing during active display. IIRC, it spends have the scanline doing nothing. It gives all those slots to the CPU. For an engineering standpoint, that's fairly wasteful. There's totally enough time to actually fetch and build another BG layer there. But more important than that, is how amazing fast the VDC fetches all the sprite pixels. It does it in the short amount of time of hblank. No other system does that. Other other systems from that era use the whole scanline to parse and fetch the sprite pixel data for the next line. Not the VDC, does it all in hblank. But here's the kicker... there's only 64words of memory for sprite line buffer. That's 256 4bit sprite pixels. The VDC is fast enough to fetch much more than that, and it tries - but there's no more space to store them so they get dropped. Considering they chose not to have a second BG layer or static under/overlay window, they should have AT LEAST increased this to double the size. They had to have known that developers were going to fake BG overlay parts with sprites. Making sprites all the more important. Plus, that means the sprites to scanline ratio with also scale with the increase resolutions (mid res, high res). But because of this limited buffer, it doesn't. That's more said than any missing BG layer. Such power wasted and crippled by a small internal buffer. To me, that's the single best mist opportunity of the system design.
- Yes, the SGX could have been made an addon. But not as it is. The extra 24k of ram sits where it's normally mirrored on the PCE. If you try to make ram there either via cart or expansion bus, you'll get a bus conflict. Just won't work. But everything else, yes. But there's a simple solution for SGX software to see if it's running on the main console or as an addon. It tests the mirror ram, if present then it used alternate bank mapped ram. Simple as that. I came up with this idea because the CD system card does just this. There's a reserved bank number in the last few bytes before the vector address of the system card rom. CD software take this value and use it as the starting bank for CD ram. Oddly enough, Gate of Thunder actually tries to change this byte in rom. From what Charles MacDonald told me of the CD dev card, system rom and ram are in different places - so this starting bank number was put there for a reason. GOT have some left over dev card routine to change it, but since it's rom it doesn't change. Anyway, the very same method could have been used to play SGX games on the main SGX system or the addon SGX upgrade.
- CD addon. The CD addon was in development when the PCE was too. Though the PCE was release first (and a year apart IIRC). The initial faults of the PCE should have been clear in the first few months. The CD addon could have addressed some of these. Adding a second VDC to the CD addon is VERY doable. It doesn't even have to be as extravagant as the SGX. The original VCE output would be ignored and a new VCE inside the CD addon could have upgraded the RGB resolution to 12bit too. Or some other scheme ( a 10th and 11th bit for half intensity and double intensity in the RGB entry), etc turned on by a special reg otherwise left disabled for compatibility reasons.
Adding the video upgrades, even if less than what I suggested (maybe just a static overlay/underlay 8bit image and a new VCE palette expansion) - would have made the CD addon stand out even more. And when the Duo was released, it would no problem matching the level of the SFC and MD hardware wise.
Sega f*cked up. They didn't have even half what the PCE had for an expansion bus. Yet they tried everything they could to have the MegaCD more advanced. It was... no it IS hackish. If you even dev'd on the SegaCD then you know exactly how hackish it is. The PCE had all the right pins and access lines needed to make a real hardware addon.... and they squandered that opportunity. They squandered the opportunity to make the CD addon and incredible upgrade that it could have been, not just some addon with a few frills here and there. :(
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on May 18, 2011, 03:37:02 AM
Reading that is just incredible, but it kind of makes me sad. I need you to go back in time :(
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 18, 2011, 06:42:27 AM
The PCE's PSG is miles ahead of the other chips of the time. Save FM and SID, but those are two very different concepts.
I rather enjoy stereo panning on 6 channels, with 32 byte waveforms and sampleable nonsense.
Beats the piss out of the NES, or the MSX, Spectrum, Coleco, Intellivision, all the Atari's, the Master System.... the Atari ST....
it just kicks ass.
I'm glad they never got rid of it all the way through the PC-FX basically. It's a unique and very fitting sound chip for the era.
They should have just released a GrafxBooster
thats what it should have been called.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Bonknuts on May 18, 2011, 11:44:16 AM
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the MSX, Spectrum, Coleco, Intellivision, all the Atari's, the Master System.... the Atari ST....
Those sound chips are basic toy chips IMO. My comment about the chip is relative to the NEC PC line (being the most popular in Japan and being of the same developer... NEC). All FM chips. Even the lowest grade ones too. The PCE chip lacks any form of timbre control on a single channel. You have to pair channels just to try and emulate the effect. That's one of the reasons why you still see comments to this day, that PCE chip music sounds like NES-ish stuff. Yeah, it's much more capable than the NES overall. But it wouldn't have hurt them to make it an even 8 channels. Making channel pairing more viable option as single pseudo channels. The lack of timbre control like real music synths or even low grade FM chips, sets the PCE chip into lower category. Or hell, something even more simpler than that. Something so simple, it makes me want to punch the PCE audio developer in the face. A simple read back of the waveform pointer position of the f*cking selected channel. "I mean, come on!" (arrested development reference). That alone would have made the PCE audio chip into a real wavetable synth (no, not sample based synth like the SNES/MOD/ETC). That one simple little feature. Bloody Wolf developer said "f*ck it, were gonna do it anyway", and tried to do it with the trumpet instrument - but without the knowledge of the waveform pointer it comes off as course and click-y (for obvious reasons).
As for the PCFX, that's the most moronic thing they could have ever done. Why the hell would they do that? A 1994 system (might as well be 1995) with an audio chip from 1987??? WTF were they thinking? It should have at least had an 8 channel sample based DSP and an 8 channel Yamaha 2151 (standard stuff for that era). It might be cool or unique now, but BITD it was f*cking laughable. Of course, there are a lot of things about the PCFX design that just boggle the mind. IF it was released AS IS in late 1992... then maybe it would have been appropriate (video and audio specs). But 1995 is a joke. To me, the PCFX is a SuperGrafx 2.0.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 18, 2011, 12:09:04 PM
Oh. Well yeah of course its dwarfed by the PC-88/98 line. When you have a computer that has plenty of room to expand, its real easy to toss in a pretty powerful synthcard. FWIW, the original FM card in those things blew pretty bad though. Its like 3 channels of FM only. and 3 SSG. So, its pretty bleh. Since it is a computer though... lots of stuff was able to come out and upgrade that into the sounds the thing is really known for. Doing this with the PCE would have either made it cost more, be larger, who knows. I'm glad they picked what they picked. We've got enough f*ckin FM crap out there. The PCE is pretty damn unique in sound land, mimicked only by the SCC, and the NES w/ add ons. And neither of those do it as good.
Some of the old PC-88 games have some pretty shit music.
I think the PCFX's sound choice is a nice acquired taste. You have to remember, there is CD audio. With CD Audio, you can dwarf the entire PC-88/98 line. You can record just about anything. 45 FM synths playing in tandem recorded in a studio if you want. Suck on that, JAST!
They probably left the good ol' chirpy chip in there as a throwback. "Yeah we got badass CD audio, but we still have your nostalgic sounds too".
I like the music it pumps out for Yuna. It sounds really cool.
Thats the beauty of CD though... I used a SID for Insanity's music... ;)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: ccovell on May 18, 2011, 01:32:29 PM
The PCE is pretty damn unique in sound land, mimicked only by the SCC, and the NES w/ add ons. And neither of those do it as good.
The SCC might be mono and only 5 channels, but it's much deeper and richer than the PCE's sound. 8-bit samples vs 4-bit samples does make a difference.
I agree that the PCE's PSG is a bit simpler and less ambitious than FM chips, but it still has a good sound to it. Also, Hudson did the development of the whole PCE core chipset, so NEC wouldn't have had any say (or relevance w/r/t their line of PCs) until after Hudson started shopping around for manufacturers.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on May 18, 2011, 02:24:58 PM
On this same topic, a small processor chip in the 1-2 MHz range for handling the PSG would have been nice. As it stands, the Hu6280 CPU handles the PSG sound, and it eats up 5-10% of processing time that could be freed up for game code. Not a huge deal, but still would have been nice.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 18, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
The PCE is pretty damn unique in sound land, mimicked only by the SCC, and the NES w/ add ons. And neither of those do it as good.
The SCC might be mono and only 5 channels, but it's much deeper and richer than the PCE's sound. 8-bit samples vs 4-bit samples does make a difference.
PCE is 5-bits?
The SCC might be deeper/richer (usually the case with Konami games, not always the case with independent use), but not having stereo panning really does suck. Especially when you hear alot of the stereo stuff on the PCE, like Dungeon Explorer.
Plus the drums are generally done with the regular MSX PSG, which is better or worse, depending how you look at it, and whos doing the drums.
All the MSX people I've talked to really envy the per channel panning.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on May 18, 2011, 04:52:05 PM
Sega f*cked up. They didn't have even half what the PCE had for an expansion bus. Yet they tried everything they could to have the MegaCD more advanced. It was... no it IS hackish. If you even dev'd on the SegaCD then you know exactly how hackish it is. The PCE had all the right pins and access lines needed to make a real hardware addon.... and they squandered that opportunity. They squandered the opportunity to make the CD addon and incredible upgrade that it could have been, not just some addon with a few frills here and there. :(
This is the story of every piece of Sega hardware after the Genesis up until the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast was a hardware jewel, but the Saturn, 2D beast that it was, was a real hack-job.
I wonder if all these hardware possibilities were part of Hudson design works, or if they were due to NEC's involvement, or if NEC's involvement prevented them from pursuing those avenues. You wouldn't want the PCE, as a CD unit, begin to usurp PC-88 and, later, PC-98 sales. The CD-ROM was computer-bound...
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on May 19, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
Wasnt the PCE eventually intended to become a fully functional computer setup?
Maybe NEC helped put the brakes on that.
I think back then, they also planned for things, and didn't plan for others...... because this was all a new frontier back then.
Hindsight is always 20/20. A lot could've been done differently. They could have done video addons, sound addons, all kinds of crap that we see plain as day right now...
Back then though, everyones favorite retro sound preferences weren't retro yet. They were still becoming preferences. The preferred format wasn't decided on (until the Playstation came and went "Yep, welcome to CDs. If you don't follow suit, you suck. You hear that Nintendo? You suck.").
Lots of things were still experimental.
screw the missed opportunities anyway. PCE was king back then, and it still is.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Bonknuts on May 20, 2011, 04:16:53 AM
The SCC might be mono and only 5 channels, but it's much deeper and richer than the PCE's sound. 8-bit samples vs 4-bit samples does make a difference.
If the waveforms are short, 8bit depth does nothing for it. And then take that into the analog output world (because sample output isn't stair cased like when you look at it digitally), it means even less. The sample lengths for these DDS samples are way too short for the different of 8bit to 5bit to mean much of anything. If you don't believe me, try it yourself in an XM tracker. Make a 32sample 8bit wave and make an identical one in 5bit steps (padded to 8bit though). As it is, you can't even use all 5bit value range resolution for a complete sine wave in just 32 samples. If anything makes the MSX with SCC more rich, it would be the inclusion of the original on board MSX sound chip in conjunction with SCC chip.
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I agree that the PCE's PSG is a bit simpler and less ambitious than FM chips, but it still has a good sound to it. Also, Hudson did the development of the whole PCE core chipset, so NEC wouldn't have had any say (or relevance w/r/t their line of PCs) until after Hudson started shopping around for manufacturers.
The over all design is good, IMO. But since it lacks any timbre control per intra-note (you can do it per note level itself though), it really holds it back. Early 70's synths that weren't FM used lots of channels to create instruments sound models, but to also control the timbre of a instrument sound. For the PCE's audio design, it's clearly lacking in the number of channels. By the time the PCE was out, audio chips in game systems were getting more serious (and arcades too). Famicom really stepped up the bar. PCE audio, if nothing changed in design, should have been eight to ten channels, really. Even if some higher channels had to share the same sample buffers as lower channels to cut cost. But then again, if NEC really wanted to 'fix' the issue, the mono audio in line is right there on the cart port. Famicom had a ton of audio upgrades via cart. So it's definitely not unreasonable that PCE wouldn't have gotten them either. But I think it goes back to the CD rom. The difference from chip audio to CDDA is drastic back then (an obvious selling point). If the CD addon had completely flopped, then I'm pretty sure we would have seen some audio upgrades on hucards.
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I wonder if all these hardware possibilities were part of Hudson design works, or if they were due to NEC's involvement, or if NEC's involvement prevented them from pursuing those avenues. You wouldn't want the PCE, as a CD unit, begin to usurp PC-88 and, later, PC-98 sales. The CD-ROM was computer-bound...
Think of it this way. The PCE wasn't an open development system like the NEC PCs. It required a license (which is where NEC made money on each title/copy sold) and a special dev unit for it. If it was anything like the US, NEC wasn't receiving any licensing fees for game softs created on the PC series. And while the NEC PCs were very popular, I doubt even a 1/4 of the sales were strictly from gamers wanting to play PC games. I think that was more of an added side bonus for kids that got a PC. NEC had more to gain and little if anything to loose by making the PCE game system more powerful than the PC line for gaming. But then again, I didn't grown up in Japan and all of that is based on my personal experience with PC's here in the US BITD.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: lukester on January 16, 2012, 08:53:16 AM
I know this is kind of late, but anyway, here is my list of missed oppurtunities ](*,)
1. More Capcom and Konami games, a Megaman game and a Contra would have been cool. 2. Namco CDs. ALL of Namco's games were on Hucard. Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo). Splatterhouse had none of the gory backround details from the arcade, and could have been much better on CD format. 3. Supergrafx-no brainer. Come on, 2 out of the 5 games were Capcom games! We could have had some major Capcom support! 4. Direct Toaplan support, they kept developing for the Megadrive :-k 5. Using Nintendo's policy to steal major companies(until it was illegal) before Nintendo did 6. A port of R-Type II
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 17, 2012, 04:00:46 AM
If the waveforms are short, 8bit depth does nothing for it.
You obviously haven't listened to the MSX using an SCC very much. You can hear much, much, much richer sound. What it lacks is ambience because there is no panning. The sound is not atmospheric, but it sure is bright. PCE is a little thinner/weaker, but has so much ambience going on that it more than makes up for it. The sampling works better on the PCE too.
You won't hear Soldier Blade style drums on the MSX with an SCC. You also will never achieve the eerie atmosphere that Dungeon Explorer gets from the music.
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And then take that into the analog output world (because sample output isn't stair cased like when you look at it digitally), it means even less.
Context is goooooood. =3
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The sample lengths for these DDS samples are way too short for the different of 8bit to 5bit to mean much of anything. If you don't believe me, try it yourself in an XM tracker. Make a 32sample 8bit wave and make an identical one in 5bit steps (padded to 8bit though).
I don't believe you, because this is incorrect. It takes some intimate understanding and experience with the SCC and it's varied uses to realize what 3 bits can do for you.
Or, it requires ears:
MSX with the SCC PCE
Notice how the PCE one is more ambient, the drums are punchy samples, but the sounds themselves are a bit weaksauce when compared to the MSX one that is VERY RICH AND BRIGHT.
3 bits. Listen to that.
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As it is, you can't even use all 5bit value range resolution for a complete sine wave in just 32 samples.
Can you clarify? Or at least make this sentence correct so I can try to figure out what you mean.
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If anything makes the MSX with SCC more rich, it would be the inclusion of the original on board MSX sound chip in conjunction with SCC chip.
Along with FM, it makes one of the richest chip-based sound experiences anyone will ever hear on an 8 bit machine.
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The over all design is good, IMO. But since it lacks any timbre control per intra-note (you can do it per note level itself though), it really holds it back.
So use FM and slam stuff into it to change the timbre. I don't see how this is really grounds for being held back though. Plus you can change waveforms so fast it doesnt even matter. Just use shorter notes, blend together and swap waves as you go. It's a bit of effort, but hey, welcome to sound chips as opposed to real instruments. Take them for what they are instead of holding them to other standards. You don't hear people complaining that they wish their kazoo was a trumpet, do you? "Man my kazoo is really held back because it doesn't have 3 valves and a mouth piece!"
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Early 70's synths that weren't FM used lots of channels to create instruments sound models, but to also control the timbre of a instrument sound.
What? Do you mean additive synthesis? Why is this even worth mentioning?
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For the PCE's audio design, it's clearly lacking in the number of channels. By the time the PCE was out, audio chips in game systems were getting more serious (and arcades too).
6 channels is lacking in 1987? lolgtfo. That's more than the NES, and the same as the Genesis which wasn't even out yet. More than the Konami SCC even. How is 6 channels lacking? You're high.
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Famicom really stepped up the bar. PCE audio, if nothing changed in design, should have been eight to ten channels, really.
Does that mean the Genesis should have been 12-14 channels, really? MSX-MUSIC had 9 channels of FM in 1987.
6 channels is more than the NES, and the SCC. I think the PCE is just fine. Look what people do with just 3 channels on other machines.
\o/ Thanks for reviving this post, new guy.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Digi.k on January 17, 2012, 10:20:13 AM
I know this is kind of late, but anyway, here is my list of missed oppurtunities ](*,)
1. More Capcom and Konami games 2. Namco CDs. ALL of Namco's games were on Hucard. Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo). Splatterhouse had none of the gory backround details from the arcade, and could have been much better on CD format.
If only Konami had stepped in earlier.. I would love some of those MSX-2 games to have appeared on the pc-engine... Space Mambo for pce ?? HELL YEAH!
and a port of the orginal MSX parodius... ;_;
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nectarsis on January 17, 2012, 10:39:21 AM
Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).
Genpei Toumaden...fantastic :-k [-( LOL
it's almost arcade perfect !!! I don't have mame and the roms anymore to prove it but it is ;_;
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: RegalSin on January 17, 2012, 11:18:11 AM
Everything else was fine on the PCE.
1. They made the DUO ( including Super Grafx ) systems, instead of focusing on the original design. The original design could have been intergrated with the NEC series. It was perfect.
2.The PCFX was reasonable and could have and should have been the PC98.
3. Hudson Soft could have used the card type and challenge USB, and Firewire. Ever seen cable boxes with the slot card, parking meeters, and wash rooms dispencers? Swing and a miss hudson.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nectarsis on January 17, 2012, 11:27:43 AM
The over all design is good, IMO. But since it lacks any timbre control per intra-note (you can do it per note level itself though), it really holds it back.
So use FM and slam stuff into it to change the timbre. I don't see how this is really grounds for being held back though. Plus you can change waveforms so fast it doesnt even matter. Just use shorter notes, blend together and swap waves as you go. It's a bit of effort, but hey, welcome to sound chips as opposed to real instruments. Take them for what they are instead of holding them to other standards. You don't hear people complaining that they wish their kazoo was a trumpet, do you? "Man my kazoo is really held back because it doesn't have 3 valves and a mouth piece!"
Good point. If you're determined to use a kazoo, use it as a kazoo. However, I doubt anyone would call a kazoo a superior instrument. The PCE sound chip does have a lot of flaws that require working around, and limit those who lack the time or talent to really push the chip. Truth told, there are many times I've thought to myself "Why didn't the PCE do anything like that?" when listening to NES soundtracks.
For the PCE's audio design, it's clearly lacking in the number of channels. By the time the PCE was out, audio chips in game systems were getting more serious (and arcades too).
6 channels is lacking in 1987? lolgtfo. That's more than the NES, and the same as the Genesis which wasn't even out yet. More than the Konami SCC even. How is 6 channels lacking? You're high.
The Genesis has 10 sound channels in total. It has the same 4 the Master System had and 6 new channels. The PCE was a little low on sound channels. It probably should have had 8. I'm not surprised it only had 6 considering Hudson was designing it to compete with the NES, but if Hudson had been more forward-looking, 8 channels and perhaps a discrete audio controller, instead of bundling the circuitry in with the CPU, would have been a more logical design. The design of the PCE seems like NES mimicry in so many ways. Instead, they should have been looking at developments in arcade board design. That was part of Sega's success with the Genny. Then again, Sega had arcade hardware and software experience, and Hudson really didn't.
Famicom really stepped up the bar. PCE audio, if nothing changed in design, should have been eight to ten channels, really.
Does that mean the Genesis should have been 12-14 channels, really? MSX-MUSIC had 9 channels of FM in 1987.
6 channels is more than the NES, and the SCC. I think the PCE is just fine. Look what people do with just 3 channels on other machines.
I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.
I know there have been tons of discussions here about chip soundtracks, and I do love the PCE, but the chip audio is generally frustrating to me. I do often feel let down by the capabilities, and practical applications, of the PCE's audio design. I prefer how the system handles digital sampling compared to the Genesis, and the system can do some great drum samples, but the tonal qualities of the various waveforms just don't do it for me. Again, I'm used to hearing good stuff on the NES and wondering why PCE soundtracks aren't as good, and that's something I shouldn't be thinking.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Syntesis on January 17, 2012, 11:00:50 PM
1. Contra game.
2. Bubble Bobble port.
3. Some sort of Castlevania on HUCARD.
4. Shenmue 3 on Super CD.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 12:34:33 AM
Good point. If you're determined to use a kazoo, use it as a kazoo. However, I doubt anyone would call a kazoo a superior instrument. The PCE sound chip does have a lot of flaws that require working around, and limit those who lack the time or talent to really push the chip. Truth told, there are many times I've thought to myself "Why didn't the PCE do anything like that?" when listening to NES soundtracks.
DEVO could make the kazoo work, I am sure. :)
I think the PCE didn't do certain things with their soundtrack simply because it's a different kind of sound. It's the same sort of argument as the kazoo and trumpet. You could hear SID and wonder "Well dang why doesn't the SMS do that?"
... but then you can listen to the SMS and go "Well dang why doesn't the SID do that!"
Every chip does what it does, and it does it good. I know when I hear overly arpped crap on the NES from Tim Failin, I don't wish the PCE was doing it. I do hear amazing drums in Soldier Blade, Blazing Lazers, etc, and go "hah, \o/". The PCE does plenty that the NES doesn't do without an additional chip. :)
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The Genesis has 10 sound channels in total. It has the same 4 the Master System had and 6 new channels.
Yeah, I was talking strictly FM here, since it's the "new thing" the Genesis had over everything else that already existed.
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The PCE was a little low on sound channels. It probably should have had 8. I'm not surprised it only had 6 considering Hudson was designing it to compete with the NES, but if Hudson had been more forward-looking, 8 channels and perhaps a discrete audio controller, instead of bundling the circuitry in with the CPU, would have been a more logical design.
Eh, 6 is a pretty solid number. If you look at the soundtracks, would 2 more channels have really added to the sound? Probably not. Look how much Konami did with 5 channels instead of 6. granted they also had the PSG... you often only hear it used for drums, and sometimes they end up using all 3 PSG channels to make one drum sound...
The NES didn't need 6. The original MSX only had 3! 6 seems fine.
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The design of the PCE seems like NES mimicry in so many ways. Instead, they should have been looking at developments in arcade board design. That was part of Sega's success with the Genny. Then again, Sega had arcade hardware and software experience, and Hudson really didn't.
now, if only Sega got the "hey, dithering sucks ass" memo with their color choices for the Genesis...
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I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.
Right, 10 was plenty. Just like 6 was plenty. Just because another platform has more channels doesn't mean the PCE or the Genesis would need to do the same.
You can have an obscene amount of channels on the MSX. 3 PSG, 5 SCC, 9 FM from MSX MUSIC and 9 FM from MSXAUDIO... and I guess you could slap a moonsound in there too and have enough channels to kill a human.
But, you'll never see anyone doing this because there's little point. 9 channels of FM (or 6 + FM drums), or 5 SCC + 3 PSG (used basically as 1 channel drums), is more than enough to accomplish anything you could be thinking about doing with music on the MSX. When you add TOO many channels, is when music starts to get all jacked up and people start to do stupid things because they can.
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Again, I'm used to hearing good stuff on the NES and wondering why PCE soundtracks aren't as good, and that's something I shouldn't be thinking.
If you don't like the waveform capabilities, it will be difficult to appreciate the thing, I guess. It's a radically different kind of sound. I'm glad it exists.
Im also glad there aren't hipster twits making awful dancemusic crap with the PCE like they do with the NES and Gameboy.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: shubibiman on January 18, 2012, 01:11:21 AM
Mortal Kombat would have sold much more TGX16 is in the US, it was so huge back then.
BUT if the PC Engine/TGX16 had the same games as the other consoles, it wouldn't have had the same appeal, at least to me, as I liked it for its own games.
Of course, I would have loved to have beat 'em ups (or at least good ones) or Contra games.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on January 18, 2012, 01:21:44 AM
Lol, the PCE's hardware design was so much more superior advanced than the onef rom the MD/genny. As I always like to say, if you open a PCE it looks like a reduced to the max super quad flat pack SMD super duper design direct from the future. Now when you open a genny, it looks like a cheap radio alarm clock from the early 80s.
Now you tell me who had more experience in designing some rad hardaware?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 01:22:36 AM
Tats has a point there.
It goes as far as their cards, not just the console itself.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Tatsujin on January 18, 2012, 01:28:04 AM
the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 01:31:39 AM
You forgot to say that through that kazoo of yours. :wink:
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on January 18, 2012, 02:57:15 AM
Beat 'em ups is a good point. I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down. The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites.. What's the closest game to Final Fight? The Kung Fu?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 18, 2012, 03:02:35 AM
I think both the TG16 and Genesis sound hardware do their respective jobs just fine. Cases can be made for excellent works on both systems. Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx. Now look at Street Fighter II... you've got to be deaf not to hear the PC-Engine version sounds better. Then there were the dual-platform games where it's a bit more subjective. Devil's Crush, for example, sounds better to me on the TG16, despite it being programmed, on the Genesis, by the mighty Technosoft. Kyokyuko Tiger/Twin Cobra sounds better, to me, on the Genesis. Cadash, while both versions sound different, seem altogether about the same quality. The list could go on and on... Of course, each system has their sound masterpieces. You'll never find anything like Streets Of Rage or Thunderforce on the TG16/PCE, and you'll never find anything like Soldier Blade or Aldynes on the Genesis. The TG16 didn't have FM channels for that low, thumping, twangy bass and the Genesis did not have custom waveforms or enough PSG channels to get the same kind of sound out of its PSG channels as the TG16. The only thing I wish they'd done with the PCE/TG16 is give the PSG channels their own controller chip to take a little heat off the CPU. I mean, it's not like full-blown PSG sound eats up a *lot* of CPU time (5-10% maybe), but every little bit counts.
As for NES games sounding better, there are two things in play here. The first is nostalgia and the second is musical composition. While an argument can be made that many NES games (Ninja Gaiden, Contra, SMB, Megaman) had some ultra-addictive stick-in-your-head tunes that you keep humming all day, I think the majority of what's going on is that it's nostalgia at work. You were younger, things made a bigger impression on you back then, and NES music was essentially a soundtrack to your youth. :)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 03:05:44 AM
Beat 'em ups is a good point. I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down. The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites.. What's the closest game to Final Fight? The Kung Fu?
PCE would/could have handled Final Fight great, especially on HuCard. Might have to make the HuCard 6-8Mbit if you wanted all three characters, but as far as actual gameplay, it'd be just fine. You could even use the PCE's 336x224 mode for a resolution a bit closer to the arcade's, or you could go the SNES route and use 256x224. Take a look at Final Fight for the SNES... they pulled off two characters with a 4Mbit cart and it played just fine (and that was even an early release when they were still trying to figure out how to get the most of the SNES's turd of a CPU). The PCE desperately needed a *great* sidescrolling beater and never got it. Double Dragon II is good, but not exactly the most impressive beat-em-up. Riot Zone is visually nice, but the gameplay itself leaves much to be desired (no 2p co-op? wtf?). Personally, I think the PCE should have gotten a conversion of the original TMNT arcade game by Konami. It would have made a lot of sense, since the PCE had 5-player tap and there was no other decent conversion of that game around (yea, the NES version is a good game, but I wouldn't even really call it a good conversion).
Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one. While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on January 18, 2012, 04:20:19 AM
the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?
Yeah, I said I didn't prefer the Genesis on sound effects and digital sampling. The MD could replicate high-quality digital audio, but not really when it was doing anything else (except for a few examples, like Dynamite Heady). But the ability to combine FM and PSG really made for some dynamic soundtracks.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 04:34:11 AM
Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one. While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'
my reason for not liking the gennie one is the sounds are inconsistent. Some tunes sound absolutely awesome, and others its like WHY IS IREM IN MY GAME
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 18, 2012, 04:35:55 AM
my reason for not liking the gennie one is the sounds are inconsistent. Some tunes sound absolutely awesome, and others its like WHY IS IREM IN MY GAME
Unlike the PCE where every game sounds just as good as Dungeon Explorer or Legendary Axe. :lol:
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 04:48:32 AM
exactly.
Even bad PCE music sounds good.
I can't really think of a game that has terri..
oh wait, Turrican.
Goddamn.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 18, 2012, 05:20:39 AM
haha the PCE had its fair share of awful music, like any other system. Darkwing Duck comes to mind too
Yeah. well that's what happens when round eye touches stuff
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Bonknuts on January 18, 2012, 07:52:16 AM
Quote
I think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.
But that's just a number. Most MD/Gen tunes don't even touch the PSG chip for music. And the ones that do definitely don't have it for the lead (with very-very few rare exceptions like SOR title screen music). Of the 4 PSG channels, it's realistically only three. 'Cause the noise channel is completely useless on its own; it only has two pitches for noise. If you want a real operation for the noise channel, it takes the period register of a tone channel (in which you loose a channel) to make real range of noise pitches. And the fact that PSG channels themselves are rather limiting (no duty cycle changing and the 10bit period register limits the octave range (both low notes and high notes). Considering what the FM chip was capable of (whether you're a fan of it or not), the SMS PSG chip is not much of a companion. You can already make perfect square wave and triangle waveform notes with the YM2612 using the feedback register (a common exploit in FM chips).
Same with the NES. Sure, 5 channels. But those channels aren't the same as the PCE. I mean, ignoring the fact that only two of the channels are lead (4 duty cycles for four different 'timbres') - the triangle channel has no volume control and neither does the 'sample' DPCM channel. So the PCE might have just one more channel, but it's a rather large step up from the NES audio in terms of capability. Whether developers took advantage of that or not, is another thing entirely.
But I do agree that 8 channels would have seemed the logical route for PCE audio. Not that you really need more channels per se to make a song or such, but the PCE's audio lacks any sort of intra-note hardware timbre control (though note-to-note timbre control is easy to do) and requires doing phase difference type effects with two channels to bend that timbre/sound (which number of PCE game music do). So an extra 2 channels would have worked nicely for that - even if it meant no extra waveform memory for them; just duplicate/reuse an existing waveform buffer. But as it is, the CDROM attachment was showcased even before the PCE was released. So think of that as your real audio upgrade (nothing could beat red book at the time). Appreciation for chiptunes seems all the rage these past 10 years or so, but back in the day people didn't give a shit. CD audio was 'badass' and everything else was inferior.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Digi.k on January 18, 2012, 09:51:26 AM
are we discussing that the pce-had a bad sound chip or that it just had bad music composers here... ?
cause I sure think we went down this road a few years ago....
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: roflmao on January 18, 2012, 11:30:18 AM
This thread is way over my head, but I still find it thoroughly interesting. :D
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 12:32:01 PM
But that's just a number. Most MD/Gen tunes don't even touch the PSG chip for music.
If it's just a number, why even bring it up then? lol. You're the one that brought up numbers in this regard.
Quote
Considering what the FM chip was capable of (whether you're a fan of it or not), the SMS PSG chip is not much of a companion. You can already make perfect square wave and triangle waveform notes with the YM2612 using the feedback register (a common exploit in FM chips).
But you could use the PSG for a lot of percussive things instead of wasting a perfectly good FM channel that could be doing something better.
Quote
but it's a rather large step up from the NES audio in terms of capability. Whether developers took advantage of that or not, is another thing entirely.
That's funny, considering in the past you've said the PCE is just a step above the NES. Now it's a large step up. At least you're leaning the right way now.
Quote
But I do agree that 8 channels would have seemed the logical route for PCE audio.
I'm curious what the logical reason was for doing 6, because it obviously worked out great.
Quote
Not that you really need more channels per se to make a song or such, but the PCE's audio lacks any sort of intra-note hardware timbre control (though note-to-note timbre control is easy to do)
Thank you for restating what I already said. :)
Quote
and requires doing phase difference type effects with two channels to bend that timbre/sound (which number of PCE game music do).
It is not always a requirement. You can do it with a single channel. Change the wave with every note. Split a note into shorter durations (two 16ths instead of an 8) and change waves between them. I've done it with Squirrel.
Quote
Appreciation for chiptunes seems all the rage these past 10 years or so, but back in the day people didn't give a shit. CD audio was 'badass' and everything else was inferior.
Tell that to all those wack job C64 fans, dude.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Bonknuts on January 18, 2012, 02:26:14 PM
..... Arkhan, just let it rest. I wasn't replying to you directly or indirectly. Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit. I purposely avoid replying to you or having any conversation with you on this forum. Please provide me with the same courtesy.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Keith Courage on January 18, 2012, 03:01:17 PM
I agree that there are many types of games that would have helped sales of the system. However, the biggest loss was that it had no 2nd controller port and a lack of fighting action style 2 player games. I really think this made a huge difference in North America. If only Riot Zone was 2 player. What were they thinking?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: roflmao on January 18, 2012, 03:20:04 PM
Totally agree with Keith Courage.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 18, 2012, 03:21:22 PM
..... Arkhan, just let it rest. I wasn't replying to you directly or indirectly. Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit. I purposely avoid replying to you or having any conversation with you on this forum. Please provide me with the same courtesy.
ffs. let what rest? I'm not trying to stir anything up with you, crybaby. These are legitimate responses to the things you are posting. You don't read these forums in great detail, so let me explain something: You aren't getting some special treatment from me. I think you are a complete dumbass for two fistfulls of reasons, but this does not come into play at all when responding to things you say. If you hadn't noticed, others replied to what I said as well. We're having a discussion. Something you too can be a part of! :)
So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum. Respond properly to the things I say. This means focus on refuting the topic, rather than managing to imply the people you don't agree with are automagically stupid and clueless and that you are the only one with a clue. Also, proofread your posts so they make sense and don't contain broken sentences, typos, or complete misuse of words that shout out that you aren't re-reading things. If you can't take the time to do that at least, how much do you really even care about ANY discussions.
For example, I saw on YouTube, you called Nintega a "gluten for punishment". I got a good laugh out of it. Stop doing that. If I wanted to stir shit up with you, I would have been all over that blunder like a fat kid with a piece of cake.
If you can't cope, push the ignore button or deactivate your account for the 4th time only to come back with a new moniker that will undoubtedly be unraveled within 3 posts because your post format is totally obvious. If you talk in public and I feel like responding, I am going to. f*ck courtesy.
and for what it's worth, by replying to someone who is replying to me, you are replying to me indirectly. You should understand this, being a programmer and all.
(http://ui28.gamespot.com/347/derp2.jpg)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: arromdee on January 18, 2012, 05:15:41 PM
I'd go with not having a second layer of scrolling. Its absence was very noticeable
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 18, 2012, 06:58:00 PM
HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one? :lol:
lol, what does weight/size/appearance have to do with being a pussy or not? Me weighing 135 (ye ye!) obviously hasn't stopped me from speaking my mind, ever.
and if the person I'm talking to has to end up resorting to physical aggression, it just means I'm right and they ain't got nothin' useful to say. If I get injured BRING ON TEH LAWSUITS CAUSE THIS IS 'MERICA.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 02:04:35 AM
HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one? :lol:
lol, what does weight/size/appearance have to do with being a pussy or not? Me weighing 135 (ye ye!) obviously hasn't stopped me from speaking my mind, ever.
and if the person I'm talking to has to end up resorting to physical aggression, it just means I'm right and they ain't got nothin' useful to say. If I get injured BRING ON TEH LAWSUITS CAUSE THIS IS 'MERICA.
For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.
Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it. It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... an ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say. :D
So, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum. Respond properly to the things I say. This means focus on refuting the topic, rather than managing to imply the people you don't agree with are automagically stupid and clueless and that you are the only one with a clue.
Also, proofread your posts so they make sense and don't contain broken sentences, typos, or complete misuse of words that shout out that you aren't re-reading things. If you can't take the time to do that at least, how much do you really even care about ANY discussions.
That's rich coming from you.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 02:25:29 AM
For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.
Not really. You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing. Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things. Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem. That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.
In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made. It's not like anyones trolling in this thread. There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.
Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him. Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post. It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.
Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.
Quote
Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.
I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.
I do this in the real world too. It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY. When I disagree, I disagree. When I think someones being stupid, I tell them. If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid. Or a crybaby with sandyvag. The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.
Quote
It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say. :D
More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.
Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.
Happens all the time.
On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.
So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.
I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button? They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.
\o/
PCE sound chip is king.
Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?
:)
as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*. I disagree.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on January 19, 2012, 03:13:29 AM
For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.
Not really. You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing. Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things. Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem. That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.
In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made. It's not like anyones trolling in this thread. There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.
Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him. Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post. It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.
Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.
Quote
Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.
I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.
I do this in the real world too. It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY. When I disagree, I disagree. When I think someones being stupid, I tell them. If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid. Or a crybaby with sandyvag. The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.
Quote
It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say. :D
More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.
Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.
Happens all the time.
On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.
So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.
I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button? They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.
\o/
PCE sound chip is king.
Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?
:)
as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*. I disagree.
At the risk of cauising a fuss... He wasn't annoyed at you r disagreeing, it was more the manner in which you disagreed. It was a little .... confrontational.
Quote
Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit.
As for the whole "resorting to violence because you can't put across a decent argument", one could say the same about trash talking.
Personally, I lurked long enough to figure out who was who, and I know not to take stuff personally from you, but I guess you have been a little bit more confrontational with Bonknuts. I think quite a few people have really.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Sadler on January 19, 2012, 03:18:38 AM
Ark, I like you and I appreciate what you've done for the community. Regardless, any chance we can dial back the 4chan a bit in here? It's cool to disagree, but there's really no reason to act like a 13 year old on XBL while doing so.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 03:25:34 AM
It's coincidence. I'm more confrontational when I disagree, and I tend to disagree with him more than others. Sure I may run my mouth about him, but hey, I run my mouth TO him too. *shrug*.
Look at when I disagree with Zeta. You don't see him crying about it. He's good to go.
I'm pretty sure Bonknuts is just mad that I am talking to him in general. Apparently he doesn't like that (but doesn't hit the ignore button and solve the problem all by himself). No ones allowed to disagree with his opinion or refute anything he says of the logical/technical variety. All that happens when you do is he gets crabby, starts lashing out at the person rather than the topic, and then disappears for awhile, only to repeat the vicious cycle.
I won't get into it, but short story version: He used to be way more chill when debating with people. Then one day, I think he got that "whoadamn im a friggin genius!" bug up his ass and can't process what happens when someone else might be right and he might be wrong.
I'm cool with being wrong, when I'm wrong. Prove it when I'm wrong! I'd love it, as it would mean I learned something. Supply evidence / crap about claims instead of peeing your pants. That's how it works.
Sadler: This isn't anything like 4 chan or 13 year olds on XBL. I haven't insulted anyones mom, posted any dicks, threatened to blow up dogs, or burn houses down.
I just said quit being a pussy. That's pretty good advice, when you think about it. lol
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on January 19, 2012, 03:34:38 AM
I agree, it's pretty tame, and TBH, it's not really a big deal apart from Bonknuts getting upset by it.
You should agree some kind of compromise, because it's a pretty interesting conversation, and the casual insults lend it a certain gravitas.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 19, 2012, 03:42:08 AM
Was that your point? If Tom's post's are unreadable and pointless, to what are you responding? Did the use of 'gluten' in place of 'glutton' honestly make you think he was talking about grain protein?
as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*. I disagree.
A prime example:
Quote
6 channels is lacking in 1987? lolgtfo. That's more than the NES, and the same as the Genesis which wasn't even out yet. More than the Konami SCC even. How is 6 channels lacking? You're high.
There's a smidgeon of logical argument, but it mostly comes across as "you're wrong and dumb!" The Genny has more than 6 channels anyway, as did the x68k and many arcade boards from the same time period.
In any case, I could give a shit about you and Tom arguing over shit; I just know hypocrisy when I see it.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 03:42:28 AM
the compromise I am going to go with is "quit being a crybaby and lrn2forum".
there was no casual insulting until the peepants were unleashed. There was what 4 pages of discussion about it from multiple people?
I guess I did stir shit up. I stirred up like 4 people talking about sega/pce/nes music. OH THE HORROR. WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 04:25:06 AM
For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.
Not really. You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing. Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things. Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem. That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.
In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made. It's not like anyones trolling in this thread. There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.
Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him. Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post. It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.
Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.
It usually takes a little trolling, or at least trolling disguised as opinions stated abrasively and obnoxiously to cause some "sandyvag". In turn, the offending troll usually had some sandyvag in the first place, which incited said trolling. While I realize what you're posting has some validity in there... somewhere... your "shotgun approach" to posting the abrasive and bitter shit isn't just pissing off your target audience (in this case Tom), it's getting on other peoples' nuts here too (namely mine). As far as not having it out for Tom, don't be coy. We all know you don't like the guy. We can all see it clearly when you respond to his posts with extra-abrasive vigor, even for you. Hell, you've even said as much, that you're not fond of Tom. Therein lies the problem... While I agree that having multiple projects in the works and finishing few is a tease and maybe even a bit irresponsible, it's no reason to have everyone else on this forum endure your personal grudge every time Tom posts something. If you're having some kind of marital spat with another member on this forum, take that bullshit to PM or something.
Quote
Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.
Quote
I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.
I do this in the real world too. It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY. When I disagree, I disagree. When I think someones being stupid, I tell them. If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid. Or a crybaby with sandyvag. The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.
Quote
It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say. :D
Quote
More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.
Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.
Happens all the time.
On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.
So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.
Like I said, it's not always about being right or wrong. Sometimes its about how you present your argument. I can tell you, personally, if somebody came up to me in real life with a disagreement and was at least somewhat civil about it, I'd return the favor and have a civilized discussion about it. If they came up to me spouting off about how I had a "sandyvag" and calling me a pussy right off the bat, that's a good recipe for getting knocked out... and I'm not even a violent person! Sometimes it's not about who's right or wrong, sometimes it's about personal respect. If someone's not going to give me enough personal respect to hold at least a somewhat civilized discussion about something, I will make no guarantees the situation won't escalate to physical violence, because it seems that's what the other person wanted all along anyway. My point is, if you're bitter or butthurt about some other member here, fine, but don't make the rest of us suffer by derailing an entire thread into a flame war between the two of you. Use the PM feature or go hunt him down on IRC if you want to be over-the-top abrasive and generally annoying about it. It's like getting into a yelling match at a crowded restaurant. Take that shit elsewhere.
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I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button? They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.
\o/
PCE sound chip is king.
Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?
:)
as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*. I disagree.
Now that THAT'S off my chest, yes, PCE sound is king... or at least Prince of PSG. Though, I wish more was/would be done with the LFO feature using channels 1+2. I'd bet you could get some pretty FM-like sound qualities (nice sounding low notes and such) using that.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 05:31:39 AM
Show me, if you feel like it. I generally try to proofread. You don't mean stupid crap like comma use and "posting like you're talking out loud", do you? That doesn't exactly count.
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Was that your point? If Tom's post's are unreadable and pointless, to what are you responding? Did the use of 'gluten' in place of 'glutton' honestly make you think he was talking about grain protein?
The point can usually be figured out, but that's alot of effort that could be saved. And no the use of gluten didn't make me think that. It's just, if you're going to make fun of a troll, try not to do something that stupid, lol.
and if you're going to post technical data/comments, it really helps to use the right words. All kinds of incorrectness in technical posts really removes the value of them. People who don't know any better learn the wrong things, and people who do know better start to have to correct you or point things out that make no sense. Arguing and peepants ensues.
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There's a smidgeon of logical argument, but it mostly comes across as "you're wrong and dumb!" The Genny has more than 6 channels anyway, as did the x68k and many arcade boards from the same time period.
I already said, I meant the FM chip itself, which is 6 channels, since we're mostly talking about music and about progressing technology. The old SMS PSG is irrelevant to that part.
lolgtfo and "you're high" are far from being insulting, at least in my book. Maybe it's because I'm used to talking like that with my friends. IM JUST A YOUNG, RAMBUNCTIOUS KID AND YOU'RE ALL OLD FARTS. =3. lol.
It usually takes a little trolling, or at least trolling disguised as opinions stated abrasively and obnoxiously to cause some "sandyvag". In turn, the offending troll usually had some sandyvag in the first place, which incited said trolling. While I realize what you're posting has some validity in there... somewhere... your "shotgun approach" to posting the abrasive and bitter shit isn't just pissing off your target audience (in this case Tom), it's getting on other peoples' nuts here too (namely mine).
It's not trolling or trolling in disguise. It's debating technical crap and opinions on something. Not everything that is a disagreement is trolling. Soon the word troll is going to become meaningless because it's misused too much. Soon there won't be any disagreeing or debating on forums without someone going OMG STOP TRORRLING. Trolling is stirring shit up for no reason other than to stir it up or bother someone. I'm debating this shit because I like this shit. The PCE sound chip is my favorite, and I'm going to defend it.
I'm surprised you of all people are worked up over any talking that is abrasive/bitter. lol. One day you're all THATS JUST ARKHAN, and now its THIS IS BOTHERING MY NUTS.
There is plenty of validity to what I've said, and some people have managed to respond.
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As far as not having it out for Tom, don't be coy. We all know you don't like the guy. We can all see it clearly when you respond to his posts with extra-abrasive vigor, even for you. Hell, you've even said as much, that you're not fond of Tom. Therein lies the problem... While I agree that having multiple projects in the works and finishing few is a tease and maybe even a bit irresponsible, it's no reason to have everyone else on this forum endure your personal grudge every time Tom posts something. If you're having some kind of marital spat with another member on this forum, take that bullshit to PM or something.
There's a difference between having it out for someone, and not liking them/thinking they're an idiot (and expressing it vocally when it comes up, sometimes with others!). My reasons for this stem from a handful of things, not just the project ADD. Some of it is from occurences here, some from IRC. Everyone's guilty of not really liking someone, and voicing it. Case in point: Everyone vs. Gravis. :)
However, NONE of that has any influence on my disagreeing with him on this topic. If it had been someone else posting the same kind of thing, I'd disagree just as much. To be honest, I read the post before I read the poster name, and was already disagreeing. Disagreeing is disagreeing. There's no grudge involved with this crap. It's coincidence. You guys are holding my grudge for me. That's dumb. If I were holding a grudge I'd start pulling up all kinds of shit Bonktom has said over the past couple years, or some PMs, or who knows what. The closest I've come to that is referencing that awhile ago Bonktom said "its just a step up" and now its "a large step up", or something.
the reason it's "everytime Bonknuts posts something", is because he basically only posts when its some kind of technical debate, or a chance to disagree with someone else. :) You gotta look at it from every angle here dude.
PS: You just brought up external crap about BonkTom, not me. lol
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Like I said, it's not always about being right or wrong. Sometimes its about how you present your argument. I can tell you, personally, if somebody came up to me in real life with a disagreement and was at least somewhat civil about it, I'd return the favor and have a civilized discussion about it. If they came up to me spouting off about how I had a "sandyvag" and calling me a pussy right off the bat, that's a good recipe for getting knocked out... and I'm not even a violent person! Sometimes it's not about who's right or wrong, sometimes it's about personal respect. If someone's not going to give me enough personal respect to hold at least a somewhat civilized discussion about something, I will make no guarantees the situation won't escalate to physical violence, because it seems that's what the other person wanted all along anyway. My point is, if you're bitter or butthurt about some other member here, fine, but don't make the rest of us suffer by derailing an entire thread into a flame war between the two of you. Use the PM feature or go hunt him down on IRC if you want to be over-the-top abrasive and generally annoying about it. It's like getting into a yelling match at a crowded restaurant. Take that shit elsewhere.
Allow me to point out the following: 1) I generally always post like this. I don't really think I posted much out of the ordinary. Maybe Bonknuts is reading it wrong because HE is holding something against me. "OH ITS ARKHAN HES BEING MEAN HE HATES ME WHAAA WHAAA WHY WONT HE LEAVE ME ALONE" or something. I don't know. It's just another post, as far as I am concerned. 2) The topic wasn't derailed until Bonktom whined and is convinced I'm out to get him. Before that, and before everyone started chiming in about it, the thread was perfectly fine. So, don't blame me for derailing this shit. It was already flying off the sandyvag tracks, so now I'm just dancing on the sideways boxcar as it tumbles down a mountain. 3) I'm not looking at trolling or pissing Bonktomnuts off. That was an accident. If he doesn't want me to respond to his technical yammering that I may disagree with, he should ignore me using the built in feature. Purposefully instigating with Tom isn't worth my time. Defending the PCE sound chip however, is totally worth my time.
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Now that THAT'S off my chest, yes, PCE sound is king... or at least Prince of PSG. Though, I wish more was/would be done with the LFO feature using channels 1+2. I'd bet you could get some pretty FM-like sound qualities (nice sounding low notes and such) using that.
I might get to some of that crap soon. If I'm not too busy getting on everyones nuts.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 05:53:12 AM
Ark, look at it like this....
I'm in a restaurant and I'm hungry as f*ck, sitting down and getting ready to enjoy a big, greasy Reuben sandwich with french fries and a tall, cold beer. I'm just about to bite into it, when I see you walk in and, Tom, sitting a couple tables over says something to you I didn't really pay attention to. A few seconds later, you're in each others' faces yelling about sandy vaginas and shit and it's pissing me off, because i'm just trying to enjoy my goddamn sandwich. So finally, I stand up and tell you BOTH to either the shut the f*ck up or go outside with that bullshit. That's essentially what I'm doing here... the restaurant is this forum, the sandwich is this thread, and you and Tom are, well... you and Tom. SHUT THE f*ck UP OR LEAVE, I'M TRYING TO EAT A GODDAMN SANDWICH IN RELATIVE PEACE HERE! :)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: roflmao on January 19, 2012, 06:08:42 AM
I'm in a restaurant and I'm hungry as f*ck, sitting down and getting ready to enjoy a big, greasy Reuben sandwich with french fries and a tall, cold beer. I'm just about to bite into it, when I see you walk in and, Tom, sitting a couple tables over says something to you I didn't really pay attention to. A few seconds later, you're in each others' faces yelling about sandy vaginas and shit and it's pissing me off, because i'm just trying to enjoy my goddamn sandwich. So finally, I stand up and tell you BOTH to either the shut the f*ck up or go outside with that bullshit. That's essentially what I'm doing here... the restaurant is this forum, the sandwich is this thread, and you and Tom are, well... you and Tom. SHUT THE f*ck UP OR LEAVE, I'M TRYING TO EAT A GODDAMN SANDWICH IN RELATIVE PEACE HERE! :)
qft.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 06:08:56 AM
Except you don't go to a restaurant expecting debates/arguing.
You should expect it here. You don't have to read this stuff. Just scroll past it if you don't care. It's only bothering you because you let it. duhrr. :)
If this were real life, with real yelling, and real sandwiches, I'd agree completely.
I don't tend to cause scenes, believe it or not. Most of my arguments are short/to the point, yet they are also abrasive and vulgar, just how I like em. If it starts to get heated, I throw up gang signs and walk away, lol
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arjak on January 19, 2012, 06:20:21 AM
*Facepalm*
Arkhan, I like you. I think you can be a great, fun guy, and you've usually stood up for me when I've said something that I felt was true that I feel strongly about.
However, I have to agree with fragmare on this one. Reading your last few posts, I feel like you really are getting too abrasive. I don't like the idea of you having to negate any good points you have by insulting someone in the same sentence. I also don't agree with the excuses you've made; things like, "It's just who I am," or, "This is the internet, this is how things work. Deal with it."
I remember when I made a post a while back about everyone being too sensitive and hateful on this forum, and you agreed with me, via PM. But now, I feel like you might be becoming part of that very issue.
You talk about how disagreeing with someone isn't the same as trolling. That's true...until someone throws a needless insult. I don't know the history between you and Bonknuts, so I won't comment on that specifically, however, insulting someone because you don't agree with them is what you're doing right now, and it hurts your argument greatly. It also makes you look like a troll. I know that's not the whole case; you have made great contributions to the PC-Engine community, like Insanity, but could you please try to dial back the obnoxiousness a bit?
I'll let all of you in on a little secret: I was once...like Nintega. I was obnoxious, angry, insulting, and easily butthurt. I was also 14 years old, but I was still being very immature. Overtime, I grew out of that bull. I'm now 22, and though I still get riled once in a while, I have tried to remain civil when I can. I don't think anyone here could logically accuse me of being a troll, here and now.
It used to be "just who I am." Then I changed for the better. If I can go from being like Nintega to being a good, helpful member of Internet society, can you please try to have discussions without throwing insults, Arkhan?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 06:25:48 AM
pre-Bonknuts peepantsing, the closest thing I did to throwing an insult was saying "you're high".
I don't sugar coat shit when I talk. Not in person, not on the internet. Most of this is people reading it the wrong way, or assuming I am going for the throat.
The point is, things were fine until I was accused of something I wasn't even doing. I don't give a shit if it was Bonknuts, you, Necromancer, spenoza, fragmare, whoever. I disagreed about crap, quoted it, put reasons why, and then got accused of OMG TROLING YOU HAVE IT OUT FOR THEM QUIT IT STOP IT.
I got more abrasive than usual AFTER that though.
From now on maybe when someones spewing things I disagree with, I'll just let it stay. That'll be productive. Misinformation, unchecked opinions, and crybabying prevailing. That'll be great. We can have a forum where all we do is agree. All disagreements can be ignored. Everyone's right about everything, always. even if they're wrong!
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: BigusSchmuck on January 19, 2012, 06:32:59 AM
I think the biggest opportunity lost was that there weren't enough Arcade Card games. Call me weird, but having gsmes like Metal Slug and Puzzle Bubble Bobble would have been great. Oh yeah and a duo with a built in arcade card and super grafx capabilities would have been nice.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 06:39:37 AM
I think the biggest opportunity lost was that there weren't enough Arcade Card games. Call me weird, but having gsmes like Metal Slug and Puzzle Bubble Bobble would have been great. Oh yeah and a duo with a built in arcade card and super grafx capabilities would have been nice.
There definitely needed to be some arcade card shooters besides Sapphire.
a Super Arcade Duo would've ruled too. Though, I really like the life-support looking super grafx + rau 30.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 19, 2012, 07:30:45 AM
I already said, I meant the FM chip itself, which is 6 channels, since we're mostly talking about music and about progressing technology. The old SMS PSG is irrelevant to that part.
Don't quite a few Genny games make tunes with the FM chip and let the PSG do the sound effects? Without the 'irrelevant' PSG, wouldn't the songs suffer having to give up a channel to do what the PSG is handling?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on January 19, 2012, 07:41:58 AM
Arkhan, I like you in person. I am not, however, the biggest fan of your forum posts. You do good work for the community and you seem to know your technical stuff, but I find it frustrating that you express your opinion in such a blunt, abrasive manner. Don't pull your punches, but don't go name-calling. You make it sound as if not being in-your-face abrasive is somehow unnecessarily softening your tone. I disagree. I think there's a neutral tone that is perfunctorily polite that you are neglecting. Do not become some kind of aggressive, ranting internet crusader. OMG, someone on the internet is wrong! So what? Discuss, issue a correction, contend their assertion. It's done all the time on polite terms.
Sometimes I get emotionally invested in being right, even if the issue is about opinions and not facts. It's when I get emotionally invested that I say things that get me in trouble. Perhaps Bonknuts falls into this trap occasionally, too. You can take that as an opportunity to correct me and get me back on track, or you can can poke the bear. You seem to relish poking the bear. Nobody is going to come around to your way of thinking just because you are "right". They are going to come around because you give them a reason to. Poking the bear does not give someone incentive to agree or to get on the path of right knowledge. All it does is irritate folks.
I believe you can still be a productive member of the community and a subject expert and not compromise your personality and still ratchet down the rhetoric and the tone of your posts. When you post abrasively you are making a choice to do so. If that choice gets people annoyed with you, it's not their fault for not recognizing that this is just "how you are." It is your fault for making the choice to communicate that way despite the fact that you know it gets on people's nerves. You have every bit of control over how you choose to communicate on this forum, and that makes you responsible for how you come across. How you are perceived in this community has everything to do with how you choose to interact with it. It is no more or less complicated than that.
I've gotten a little better at following my own advice over the years, but I still have a lot of ground to cover. This is my admission that this little lecture is somewhat hypocritical. For all my failures, however, at least I am trying.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 07:52:39 AM
Your silly typos and grammatical errors don't count but Tom's do. Gotcha.
That's not what I said, as I don't consider those when talking about my grammatical errors OR TomNut's. I'd go pull up some of my favorites, but you don't care, and it isn't worth the time. :D
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Don't quite a few Genny games make tunes with the FM chip and let the PSG do the sound effects? Without the 'irrelevant' PSG, wouldn't the songs suffer having to give up a channel to do what the PSG is handling?
Possibly, but not always (or often)... and not having the PSG wouldn't impact things as much as you'd think. You can set it to flip back and forth from music to SFX on a given channel... so you only temporarily give up a channel. Nothing serious, and happens on all kinds of consoles/computers. :) all of the latest Aetherbyte games do this as well. Atlantean gives up 0 channels for sound effects. It plays them when needed and the 6 channel music continues onward! :)
Plus, we've been talking about music almost exclusively here.
Arkhan, I like you in person. I am not, however, the biggest fan of your forum posts. You do good work for the community and you seem to know your technical stuff, but I find it frustrating that you express your opinion in such a blunt, abrasive manner. Don't pull your punches, but don't go name-calling. You make it sound as if not being in-your-face abrasive is somehow unnecessarily softening your tone. I disagree. I think there's a neutral tone that is perfunctorily polite that you are neglecting. Do not become some kind of aggressive, ranting internet crusader. OMG, someone on the internet is wrong! So what? Discuss, issue a correction, contend their assertion. It's done all the time on polite terms.
As far as I can tell, the stuff I posted in this thread prior to BonkNuts complaining were hardly harsh or aggressive. Everyone claims OH YOU ARE EXTRA HARSH TO HIM ALL THE TIME. YOU GOTS IT OUT FOR HIM. Gimme a break. It sounds pretty tame when I read it again. I'm even surprised myself. No one seemed to give a damn until BonkTom went and whined, and his whining seems a bit lame anyways. Lets say you posted exactly what I said, instead of me posting it. I guarantee you BonkNuts would not have said "give it a rest, leave me alone". He would have proceeded to attempt to cut you down in a hail of intellectual gunfire.
as for the rest of your post (no point clogging the thread up more, you already have it posted!), where would the fun be in dialing it down a ton? Usually I'm just blabbering stuff that isn't even directed at anyone. :) We don't ALL have to be all non abrasive. You can be the ointment for my burns.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 19, 2012, 08:25:01 AM
Possibly, but not always (or often)... and not having the PSG wouldn't impact things as much as you'd think. You can set it to flip back and forth from music to SFX on a given channel... so you only temporarily give up a channel. Nothing serious, and happens on all kinds of consoles/computers. :)
Obviously it's not the end of the world (I didn't say it was), but it does make a difference. Take a shootie for example: you're constantly firing, effectively meaning there's only five channels available for music.
I agree that there are many types of games that would have helped sales of the system. However, the biggest loss was that it had no 2nd controller port and a lack of fighting action style 2 player games. I really think this made a huge difference in North America. If only Riot Zone was 2 player. What were they thinking?
I also think there was a lack of western character licenses for the pce/turbo.. honestly would love Hudson soft and NEC to have been more aggressive and produced a; mickey mouse disney /simpsons /x-men/marvel characters game. Also not having Konami release their games stateside was a blow too.
This reminds me of the old thread where me and ninja S. was photoshopping make believe covers for pce games XD (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/xexex-1.jpg)(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/sunsetriders.jpg) (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/finalfight.jpg) (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/daimakamura.jpg)(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/kwoksta/superstreetfighterII.jpg)
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 09:47:16 AM
Me either for the most part, but hey, that's what the conversation was about.
I thought the conversation was about whether or not the SMS PSG was irrelevant. :roll:
No that was a sub conversation of the alpha topic in the omega sector.
That sunset riders mockup is a bonermaker.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on January 19, 2012, 02:11:03 PM
Arkhan, it's been in my head a while. I'm just bringing it up now because others did. That's all.
As for missed opportunities, I do indeed think more advanced audio capabilities in the base unit, whether the answer was more channels (making it more attractive to use the FM-like functions), some FM audio, ADPCM built into the base unit, a separate audio processor, or what have you was indeed a missed opportunity. The arcades were clearly headed that direction and PCs of the time were also heading that direction. Again, Hudson's decision to do audio the way they did isn't necessarily a poor one. It made business sense and was certainly competitive compared to the NES and SMS, but even with the CD-ROM unit projected it would have been nice for them to be a little more forward looking.
In fact, if they'd looked to the arcades at all it would have been nice.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 19, 2012, 02:18:26 PM
I guess I think the audio chip is perfectly fine, and a wise choice. Having one single background layer was more of a missed opportunity, IMO. The audio in most games is pretty top notch.
Soldier Blade could use another BG layer before it could use better audio :)
Really, what should have been done, is the Super Grafx should have been the PC Engine, and the audio should have been handled outside of the CPU.
Though I think they just banked on the CD audio carrying them into the 90s, and for the most part, it did.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Bonknuts on January 19, 2012, 02:39:06 PM
Two pages of drama related stuff... Look, this is what I'm actually trying to avoid. It's not that I give a crap about you or about what drama or shit you get involved in. I could careless about what you think you know and what your opinions are. I care about this PCE forum. You are not the forum, just a single member. We can't and don't get along, a plain and simple fact. Who cares why. It's irrelevant because it's not going to be fixed. I'm trying to execute some self control and avoid turning threads on this forum into a shit storm of back and fourth flaming war between. Nobody else cares. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure people are sick of seeing it. I'm not going to setup any ignore button. It won't solve any problems. When I see your posts, I tend to skip right by them. When they're directed at me, it's not so easy. I can only ignore your tone and insults towards me for so long. I'm not a kid and I'm not your friend, so you don't get the luxury of talking to me like that - like it's just nothing. I'm not overly sensitive. I have friends in RL that I give/take shit way more than that. It's matter that we have history and it always comes down to and devolves into retarded back and fourth flaming/bashing shit 'cause neither one of us likes to back down and we both take it personally (regardless if you admit it or not). I don't want it and I'm pretty sure no one else here wants it. So I'm asking you, avoid replying to me. Avoid any conversation with me. It's that simple. And I'll keep doing the same.
This thread is derailed enough. We said our shit, so there's no reason to continue this here. If you REALLY have something so damn important to say to me, PM me. .
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: spenoza on January 19, 2012, 07:03:28 PM
The SuperGrafx is a bit beefy. Not sure the PCE needed more sprites, necessarily. Sure, more would be better, but... Yeah, a GPU with a second background layer, a separate audio controller, and more CPU RAM would have made the system quite a lot more capable. Not sure what additional cost would have been incurred, though. I consider the minimal CPU RAM the single biggest hardware flaw in the system. There is no other factor which impairs the system more, IMO. I wonder if the presence of more weird graphical effects (various warping effects, software scaling, and fake 3D perspective shifts) in SNES and MD games is due in part to both increased RAM and to the CPU not having to share cycles with audio functions.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 08:44:59 PM
The SuperGrafx is a bit beefy. Not sure the PCE needed more sprites, necessarily. Sure, more would be better, but... Yeah, a GPU with a second background layer, a separate audio controller, and more CPU RAM would have made the system quite a lot more capable. Not sure what additional cost would have been incurred, though. I consider the minimal CPU RAM the single biggest hardware flaw in the system. There is no other factor which impairs the system more, IMO. I wonder if the presence of more weird graphical effects (various warping effects, software scaling, and fake 3D perspective shifts) in SNES and MD games is due in part to both increased RAM and to the CPU not having to share cycles with audio functions.
I've never really considered the lack of work RAM a big problem with the PCE. That RAM space, really only had three practical uses, all of which can be worked around, pretty easily.
a.) Storage of decompressed graphic data. Sometimes to reduce ROM size (and cartridge costs), Genesis and SNES games would store compressed graphic data in ROM, and decompress it to work RAM so that data could be called up quickly into VRAM when needed. The solution to this is to either decompress graphic data on-the-fly (slower), or simply store the data in ROM uncompressed (fast, but uses more ROM space).
b.) Self-modifying code. Sometimes, depending on the situation, code is faster and more efficient if it can modify itself to a degree. With more work RAM it's possible to store more self-modifying code. As a programmer, you'd have more options. Especially if you're used to making self-modifying code. The solution would be to simply code everything from the ground up, using static code. Or at least keep the self-modifying code to 8KB or less. Really not a huge deal, ask any of the PCE programmers here.
c.) Storage of variables, tables and other small structures that can be changed (this kind of ties in with b.) at any time. Some kinds of games use more variables than others. Shooters and platformers, for example, don't really need a lot of variables because the code is pretty straightforward. RPGs and adventure games, on the other hand, use a lot of this stuff to store things like current HP, XP, MP for both players and enemies, etc. Generally 8KB is still PLENTY for these variables. I'm sure there's some workaround for this that one of the programmers here could enlighten us on. Compression perhaps?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Samurai Ghost on January 19, 2012, 11:02:47 PM
1) my posts towards you were taken as hostility towards you due to our past. My bad. Sorry. That wasn't my intent because most of our past battles are from IRC and relate to things noone here really cares about anyways. I didn't know it was your post until AFTER I'd read it. I was hoping it was RegalSin, to be honest. Neither of you have forum avatars, so I got excited. You don't post often enough for me to think it's your post. 2) We could get along. Get past the previous crap. Stop being convinced I am out to get you and want to get at your throat. There would've been no drama if you hadn't complained, and had simply discussed, like everyone else. You know people replied to my posts directed at you, right? So, it's not like there wasn't crap to be talked about. You know damn well if my posts would have been from someone else besides me, you would have taken the time to reply and defend your stance. :) 3) The ignore button already exists. Click my name and press the button if you don't want to read my posts. I'm not going to stop replying to you. I'll make sure when I reply, I keep it safe so you or others don't think I'm trying to piss in your cheerios because I don't like you. 4) I'm glad you care about the PCE forum. Stop removing your accounts so your legacy is left behind in one piece, not 4. 5) Go skim through some of the posts that are "drama" and see all the stuff you missed about the PCE. Like sort-of intra-note timbre control. There's some neat shit you can do with Squirrel and you're missing out on it. 6) Saying things like "what you think you know", are things that start a lot of these problems. You're guilty of being overly harsh and condescending to people who disagree with you as well.
What would people say to a Bayou Billy style game on the PCE.
"The Adventures of Swamp Steve" ?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Mishran on January 20, 2012, 01:24:51 AM
What would people say to a Bayou Billy style game on the PCE.
"The Adventures of Swamp Steve" ?
Misadventure of Jambalaya Jack?
Base it on a shrimp that just escaped from a Louisiana kitchen and fights insects, gaters, and imbred hillbillies in an attempt to make it back to the ocean and reunite with his family.
Stupid, I know. Just something that randomly popped in my head. #-o :lol:
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 20, 2012, 01:25:37 AM
lol. wow.
THE ADVENTURES OF GUMBO GARY.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on January 20, 2012, 01:52:21 AM
I think the biggest missed opportunity on the PCE was...
...Arkhan and Tom trying to make a game together. Imagine the lulz. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on January 20, 2012, 01:55:06 AM
As for the Ark vs Tom thing... the way I see it, Tom started the mess this time. You both have started so much shit between each other over the years that my wife thinks you two are secretly in love with each other.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on January 20, 2012, 01:56:26 AM
Oh and btw... Ark's right on this one. But then again, he usually is right on stuff he talks about. Just because he does it by taking a steel wool to someone's face, doesn't mean his point is less accurate.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on January 20, 2012, 01:57:42 AM
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 20, 2012, 03:26:45 AM
Dark Seal 1 and 2!!! The PCE/TG16 didn't really have a decent iso-angle adventure game. The arcade hardware for Dark Seal 1/2 was based on the Hu62C80 too, iirc.
A version of Black Tiger would have been nice too... oh wait, we got Black Tiger. It just had cutesy graphics slapped on top with fruits and nuts and was renamed Son Son II. hehe
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 20, 2012, 03:28:19 AM
Yea man, iso-games are lacking.
I like iso games when they don't suck.
Spectrum ones suck. an Arcus odyssey like game would have been tits-on-toast.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 20, 2012, 03:50:04 AM
Oh, I know. I play them shits in Mame all the time.
There is another I can't think of that would have ruled. I think it had sorceror in the name.
also, Gaiapolis would have been one badass Arcade CD game. that game is <3
Yea, so would a SuperGrafx conversion of Osman, the spiritual successor to Strider. Or hell, at least a decent version of Strider for any of the PCE platforms! The one we got on Arcade CD was pretty underwhelming. 30fps? Screwed up player colors? Slightly delayed jump response? NO BG AT ALL FOR SOME PARTS?!?! *swing and a miss*
There was a 6-button sidescrolling beater by Kaneko called Shadow Force in the arcade that would have been nice on the TG16. For that matter, the arcade version of Battletoads was *awesome* and ran at the PCE's native res mode of 512x224. I think EA had the license on that though.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 20, 2012, 04:35:38 AM
they didnt even pick up the bat for that one, lol
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 20, 2012, 04:44:49 AM
Sometimes I almost wonder if hack fixing some of these little gameplay mechanic blunders in some games that make them frustrating instead of fun would be worthwhile. The jump delay in the HuCard/CD Altered Beast for example. You crouch down for like a full half second before you actually take to the air. In ACD, there's a similar problem with "jump lag". Or how doable it would be to hack Raiden so you instantly respawn instead of start back at a checkpoint. Simple little hacks like that would actually increase the replay value of these games, simply because it makes them more enjoyable. As it stands, with the aforementioned games, I usually end up wanting to toss the controller.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: nodtveidt on January 20, 2012, 04:56:48 AM
Edit buttons are for making edits. Nothing I said needed editing. :P
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 20, 2012, 05:04:22 AM
BUT YOU COMITED PARTY FOUL DOBLE POTS.
/geralds.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: fragmare on January 20, 2012, 05:11:33 AM
Yea, i just checked the Altered Beast jump timing in the arcade version. There is *zero* jump lag. you press jump and in one 60hz frame tick, you make a crouch animation in mid-air, the very next frame tick, you're moving upwards. The HuCard Altered Beast, you're crouched for probably a good .4 second before you actually jump. the CD version is a little less, but still way too much to not be frustrating.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 20, 2012, 05:29:53 AM
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: RegalSin on January 23, 2012, 08:27:47 PM
Quote
Göẗzëndïënër
was the Diablo generation before Diablo came out, you can zoom in on the action, and wander around in a prince of persia like setting. Plus thier is cut scenes.
What is stopping the game from being fun, is the SIMS stylist/Diablo/Shadowrun look it has. That has been done to death. However this game is an earlier game.
I can still have fun with it.......like playing Resident Evil. Resident Evil was only fun because of never knowing what was behind the next door. Just like Resident Evil, with all the puzzles it can get annoying.
I feel like....oh their we go it was right their. I just had to move that, oh look.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: esteban on January 24, 2012, 12:26:18 AM
BK ON TPK: folks who are anti-arpeggio can SCK MY LFT 1
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 24, 2012, 12:29:17 AM
Just like Resident Evil, with all the puzzles it can get annoying.
With Götzendiener, it's the lack of puzzles that's annoying. If you've actually played the game for any length of time, it's painfully obvious how empty each level is.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 24, 2012, 03:02:17 AM
RegalSins entire life is a puzzle.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Black Tiger on January 24, 2012, 07:36:38 AM
I somehow missed the zooming action in Gotzendeiner. Did they squeeze a SNES onto the disc?
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 24, 2012, 07:40:10 AM
With Götzendiener, it's the lack of puzzles that's annoying. If you've actually played the game for any length of time, it's painfully obvious how empty each level is.
Well you see, the game takes place after a battle, so you have to figure out how to leave the tower. Unlike the west comics influenced videogames, and this one in particular, was an opposite take.
Your the Princess Jasmine trying to escape after Jafar and Aladdin, killed each other. Then the Geni and monkey took over the castle and are running amuck around the stronghold. Without a holder of the lamp, the genie is all powerfull.
Puzzles are everywhere, but they are natural puzzles, like what do I hit this bell with? I can use this ladder in ten differnt places? Hey look I can control a monster and lead em here? Oweee fireee? Those are the puzzles. They had to be creative, not like Legend of Zelda playing boxel all day. Also the Princess has to deal with not being a buffed out warrior, in order to weild a giant Shamshir.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: soop on January 24, 2012, 10:10:38 PM
^ I have to say, it does sound interesting. I like puzzle games a lot.
In fact, I'd have to admit, they probably are my favorite genre these days. Things like Tower of Druaga, Prof. Layton, Ace Attourney, Pokemon Puzzle, Catrap... I go crazy for puzzle games. I tend to get really stuck into them and finish them too.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Arkhan on January 24, 2012, 11:11:22 PM
Your the Prince Jazzman trying to escape after Jamal and Alonzo, capped each other. Then the Genesis and your mom took over the club and are running amuck around the dancefloor. Without a holder of the blast processor, the genesis is all powerfull.
whats sad is this makes more sense.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Necromancer on January 25, 2012, 03:21:58 AM
Puzzles are everywhere, but they are natural puzzles, like what do I hit this bell with? I can use this ladder in ten differnt places? Hey look I can control a monster and lead em here? Oweee fireee? Those are the puzzles.
I know what the puzzles are, clown. The problem is that there's maybe six in the entire game.
Title: Re: Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE
Post by: Black Tiger on January 25, 2012, 04:55:10 AM
Puzzles are everywhere, but they are natural puzzles, like what do I hit this bell with? I can use this ladder in ten differnt places? Hey look I can control a monster and lead em here? Oweee fireee? Those are the puzzles.
I know what the puzzles are, clown. The problem is that there's maybe six in the entire game.
Most people give up after failing to solve the first puzzle and never discover the even more challenging puzzles that follow. I don't know how long I sat there, trying to make sense of the ambiguous "Push Run Button" clue. I flipped the control pad over and over again, trying to make some sense from all the possible actions I could take. I admit that in the end, I just started mashing my fingers into the pad across all sides until the puzzle magically solved itself. I'll never know what the actual solution was, but at least I had the patience to make it far enough to experience some of the many brain busters that followed.