PCEngineFans.com - The PC Engine and TurboGrafx-16 Community Forum
NEC TG-16/TE/TurboDuo => TG-16/TE/TurboDuo Discussion => Topic started by: TurboExpressFan on May 26, 2011, 02:33:58 AM
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I have noticed on many comparison videos on YouTube comparing games that were on the PC engine/TurboGrafx, Genesis, and SNES that there is at least one person who starts to bring up bits and how the TurboGrafx is actually 8-bit just because its CPU is not 16-bit. ](*,) Which I find aggravating and strange seeing as consoles since the PS1 have relied on GPU's just like how the TurboGrafx did. consoles these days run off of 32-64 bit CPU's so by there thinking modern consoles are still 32-64 bit which makes no sense it is the GPU that matters right? What are other people's thoughts on this. Thanks for your time.
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I don't think anyone has paid any attention to bit-ness since the Saturn/N64/PSX generation. The N64 tried to tout bitness and people decided ultimately it didn't matter. From then on it was game over on people counting bits.
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I believe you are correct TEF: most recent consoles are like the Turbo in that their bitness varies depending on where you measure them.
I also think Spenoza is basically right. I travel in both console gamer and PC gamer crowds and one thing I have learned when listening to them dis on one another is that most gamers have a very limited understanding of how hardware works or what it is for. Larger numbers sound impressive to people who don't know what those numbers signify. The reality is that each platform is going to have its own strengths and weaknesses due to issues other than bus width or processor speed.
Beyond that, I have personally always thought that games should be judged by how fun they are. I don't really care how pretty the graphics are if playing feels like a chore. Of course, I suppose pretty + fun is better than ugly + fun. ^__^
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the bit wars were stupid from the get go.
Atari 2600 is better than Atari Jaguar, lol.
Theres your case in point.
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I don't really care how pretty the graphics are if playing feels like a chore. Of course, I suppose pretty + fun is better than ugly + fun. ^__^
yea, SNES and Gens had Rise of the Robots! O_O
I personally see the 'prettiest' turbob games as just as pretty or prettier than SNES and GENS games.
Turbo - Lords of Thunder, Shape Shifter, Beyond Shadowgate, Sapphire, Drac X
Gens- Sonic 3, Gunstar Heroes, VectorMan, Zero Tolerance, Comix Zone
SNES- Donkey Kong Country, Star Fox, Yoshi's Island, Contra III, Mystical Ninja
Their all different, and have their strengths and weaknesses. There are shit looking Turbob, SNES, and Genesis games all around. Some idiot says "SNES is more powerful!" lets see the Genesis version of Pitfighter vs. the SNES version...... or Faceball on Turbob handling 4 player split screen compared to the pathetic SNES 'SUPER" Faceball 2000 with only a 2 player mode.....
The last two gens were generally 128 bit right? So PS3 = Dreamcast. Well, 'cept DC with all the homebrew/ import games and awesome library can smash the f*cking PS3 and its buggy online service and no games to pieces.
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I don't believe that bits are important anymore. Seems like the most important factor game need or have is DLC Lots of gamers jumped to the 360 version of GTIV because they knew the DLC was going there first. Multiplayer is a big one too. Graphics don't really matter to the pick up and play crowd either.
@Turbostar
Why do you compare the Dc to the PS3? Is it because they are basically in 3rd place to the Wii and 360? What type of games to you feel the Ps-3 is Lacking?
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and no games to pieces.
citation needed.
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the bit wars were stupid from the get go.
Atari 2600 is better than Atari Jaguar, lol.
Theres your case in point.
Quoted For Truth
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The best version of Tempest 2K crushes everything I played on the 2600 except possibly Combat (2 player, of course).
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The best version of Tempest 2K crushes everything I played on the 2600 except possibly Combat (2 player, of course).
I'd take the classic lineup of 2600 games over the ONE game on the jag that is decent...
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Isn't there only one decent Jag Game: Alien Vs. Predator?
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Why do you compare the Dc to the PS3? Is it because they are basically in 3rd place to the Wii and 360? What type of games to you feel the Ps-3 is Lacking?
Comparing the first console released in the last generation, and the latest one in this current gen.
Exclusives. You can preach about Uncharted and MGS4 all day long.. but that just isn't enough.
citation needed.
Lots of great games mind you, its just that all of them (except a few) are also on another console that is less expensive, and there are more players online at any given time.
Example- I LOVE NFL 2k5, shit when Madden sucked up the exclusive license to the NFL, football games died to me. I can STILL go on XBL with a 360 and find players on NFL 2K5's servers playing exhibition and Season play.
The PS3 just doesn't have that.
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Isn't there only one decent Jag Game: Alien Vs. Predator?
Man, I love underdog systems, but I'll take the 32X or 3DO over the stinkin' Jaguar. I had one for a while and not only is the library pretty dismal, but the console itself and the few good games are annoyingly expensive.
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Isn't there only one decent Jag Game: Alien Vs. Predator?
Man, I love underdog systems, but I'll take the 32X or 3DO over the stinkin' Jaguar. I had one for a while and not only is the library pretty dismal, but the console itself and the few good games are annoyingly expensive.
I agree. I had one for about 2 months as well back around 2000? or so. This was also my gripe and after beating Gex and AvP I was bored, and traded it towards a Sega CDX.
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Exclusives. You can preach about Uncharted and MGS4 all day long.. but that just isn't enough.
You're right. lets add in Folklore, the NIS/Atlus RPGs, Time Crisis 4, Catherine, Heavenly Sword, GOW, and some other stuff
Whats the 360 exclusives that really make it so great?
Lots of great games mind you, its just that all of them (except a few) are also on another console that is less expensive, and there are more players online at any given time.
Screw online, and both consoles are dirt cheap now.
Example- I LOVE NFL 2k5, shit when Madden sucked up the exclusive license to the NFL, football games died to me. I can STILL go on XBL with a 360 and find players on NFL 2K5's servers playing exhibition and Season play.
The PS3 just doesn't have that.
Oh no you cant play a crappy football game online, DANG.
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Oh no you cant play a crappy football game online, DANG.
CRAPPY FOTTBALL GAME!?!?!?!?!?! YOU NO THAT NLF 2K WAS TEH GRATEST FOTTBALL GAME EVUR IN TEH HISTORY OF VIDO GAMS!!! DONT' U!? KNOW OF CORSE U WOULDN'T, YOUR TOOO BIZY PLAYGNI YOUR RETORDED NIS ROLPAYING GAMEZ!
LUK I FOUND A PICTURE OF AKRAN-
(http://school.discoveryeducation.com/clipart/images/pencil.gif)
ISTN HE THE BIGEST FAGGIT OR WHIT?
You're right. lets add in Folklore, the NIS/Atlus RPGs, Time Crisis 4, Catherine, Heavenly Sword, GOW, and some other stuff
Alright, fine perhaps I have lots to try before I write off the PS3 as worthless. :)
Whats the 360 exclusives that really make it so great?
None. This isn't like the 16-bit wars where Genesis games were Genesis games, SNES games were SNES games, and Turbo games were f*cking awesome TURBOB games. Exclusive games actually mattered then.
What we have now are two systems that both suck, and are nearly identical in the amount of suck that they are!
Oh, and the Wii.
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
QFT
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
well then I guess modern consoles are still 32-64 bit then if you only go by the CPU. Modern systems the CPU is not the most important anymore, it is the GPU that matters, just like the PC engine with its 16-bit GPU. Also the CPU's are not the same the PC engine's is over twice as fast as the NES, it has one of the fastest 8-bit CPU's actually. That is like saying a Atari Jaguar is not 64 bit just because the N64 could do textures, it was simple an older simplirer version of 64 bit compared to the N64. The SNES was 4 years newer then the PC engine so of course it had some new tricks and advancments compared to the PC engine, that's like saying the Atari 2600 was not 8-bit just because the NES could do more things.
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Oh no you cant play a crappy football game online, DANG.
CRAPPY FOTTBALL GAME!?!?!?!?!?! YOU NO THAT NLF 2K WAS TEH GRATEST FOTTBALL GAME EVUR IN TEH HISTORY OF VIDO GAMS!!! DONT' U!? KNOW OF CORSE U WOULDN'T, YOUR TOOO BIZY PLAYGNI YOUR RETORDED NIS ROLPAYING GAMEZ!
LUK I FOUND A PICTURE OF AKRAN-
(http://school.discoveryeducation.com/clipart/images/pencil.gif)
ISTN HE THE BIGEST FAGGIT OR WHIT?
You're right. lets add in Folklore, the NIS/Atlus RPGs, Time Crisis 4, Catherine, Heavenly Sword, GOW, and some other stuff
Alright, fine perhaps I have lots to try before I write off the PS3 as worthless. :)
Whats the 360 exclusives that really make it so great?
None. This isn't like the 16-bit wars where Genesis games were Genesis games, SNES games were SNES games, and Turbo games were f*cking awesome TURBOB games. Exclusive games actually mattered then.
What we have now are two systems that both suck, and are nearly identical in the amount of suck that they are!
Oh, and the Wii.
I agree, NFL 2K series was awesome. Why do you EA paid for the exclusive right for the NFL teams, they were scarred when Sega said they would release a better football series for cheaper. That also happened to be selling better and catching up to Madden which they charged 60 bucks for every year when the updates are usually so small they could just update the previous game with DLC and charge people less.
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
well then I guess modern consoles are still 32-64 bit then if you only go by the CPU. Modern systems the CPU is not the most important anymore, it is the GPU that matters, just like the PC engine with its 16-bit GPU. Also the CPU's are not the same the PC engine's is over twice as fast as the NES, it has one of the fastest 8-bit CPU's actually. That is like saying a Atari Jaguar is not 64 bit just because the N64 could do textures, it was simple an older simplirer version of 64 bit compared to the N64. The SNES was 4 years newer then the PC engine so of course it had some new tricks and advancments compared to the PC engine, that's like saying the Atari 2600 was not 8-bit just because the NES could do more things.
(http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/successful-troll-is-successful.jpg)
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
well then I guess modern consoles are still 32-64 bit then if you only go by the CPU. Modern systems the CPU is not the most important anymore, it is the GPU that matters, just like the PC engine with its 16-bit GPU. Also the CPU's are not the same the PC engine's is over twice as fast as the NES, it has one of the fastest 8-bit CPU's actually. That is like saying a Atari Jaguar is not 64 bit just because the N64 could do textures, it was simple an older simplirer version of 64 bit compared to the N64. The SNES was 4 years newer then the PC engine so of course it had some new tricks and advancments compared to the PC engine, that's like saying the Atari 2600 was not 8-bit just because the NES could do more things.
The intellivision is a true 16bit console and came out 10 years before genesis and turbograhpics. If Sega and Nec wanted to sell good systems they should have made them 64bits. 16bits was old news and we already got ripped off by going backwards with 8bit segas and nintendoes. They dont care cause they think people will buy anything and their right. At least nintendo made the snes 3D with cgi and transpancies and real musics. genesis is like nes with more scrolls and fart sounds. turbografiks is like bad nes games. If tg16 was 16bit, it wouldnt make you buy addons for 2 players or video upgrades. nes had builtin video. Huchips dont even save games. How are you supposed to bring your saved games to friends house? You cant, thats how.
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
:clap:
This belongs next to Joe's Viewpoint review.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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The pcengine is only a fake 16bit. Nec knew this and lied to consumers to trick them into buying crappy nes games. The pcengine cant do parallax because its not real 16bits. The games have nes sound and Nec had to release a bios upgrade in a cdrom just to try to compete. But it couldnt because the cpu was still the exact same one the nes has and thats why the pcengine was in last place. If the pcengine was 16bits it would have alien soldier and pilot wings. I played deep blue and golden axe and the mode 7 wasnt as good as on snes.
well then I guess modern consoles are still 32-64 bit then if you only go by the CPU. Modern systems the CPU is not the most important anymore, it is the GPU that matters, just like the PC engine with its 16-bit GPU. Also the CPU's are not the same the PC engine's is over twice as fast as the NES, it has one of the fastest 8-bit CPU's actually. That is like saying a Atari Jaguar is not 64 bit just because the N64 could do textures, it was simple an older simplirer version of 64 bit compared to the N64. The SNES was 4 years newer then the PC engine so of course it had some new tricks and advancments compared to the PC engine, that's like saying the Atari 2600 was not 8-bit just because the NES could do more things.
(http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/successful-troll-is-successful.jpg)
what do you mean by that?
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I wasn't even really trolling. Everything I wrote I've heard from various people in this kind of discussion. I just brought it in before anyone else did as facts. That's why there's no point in trying to have a logical discussion with them. Anyone who sees a better PC Engine game and says that it's not in the same class as Genesis and SNES games cannot have their mind changed.
If scientists discovered tomorrow that the Genesis cpu was actually 4-bit and being aware of this fact changed the opinion of some people, as to the class of the console... then the measure of the games means nothing to them. All that matters is neat factoids that they come across that they can hold over another persons head to sound hardcore to themselves.
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All that matters is neat factoids that they come across that they can hold over another persons head to sound hardcore to themselves.
And to re-instill the fact to their fragile egos that their childhood system of choice was superior. So by extension, they are superior. I mean, going beyond just simple preferences/bias based on nostalgia. The comments I've seen about the TG compared to the SNES or Genesis are pretty retarded so they tend to stick out, but the larger major of bit war discussions, if you can call it that, nowadays about retro systems are actually just between the SNES and Genesis.
Video game manufacture's advertisement divisions didn't create the 'bit war' terminology. They just borrowed it. It around much earlier than the '16bit' generation. The computer marketing divisions were using it for quite a while. Hell, the 'ST' in Atari ST stands for sixteen/thirtytwo. As in 16bit data bus, 32bit cpu. Yes, they were calling the original 68000 cpu a 32bit cpu. Why the hell didn't Sega pickup on that? Guess they shot themselves in the foot when the put '16bit' on the top of the original model console. At least in the computer scene, it made a little more sense (still highly dependent on the computer itself though).
Also the CPU's are not the same the PC engine's is over twice as fast as the NES
Why not tell it like it is. It's over four times as fast (it's exactly 4 times the clock speed, but the difference is more than just that). ;)
I like to ask people who tout such bitness inferiority of the TG/PCE, what they think would actually be different if the NES had a 1.79mhz 68k 16bit cpu. By all accounts, it would be a 16bit system (the intellivision example usually doesn't work on them, since such people rarely have experience with systems pre NES). Then tell them that nothing about the video/sprites/colors/BGs or sound or music would change. Not a single thing. 7 times out of 10, they can't reconcile the fact and just revert to some stupid defensive mechanism (denial); "doesn't matter, TG/PCE isn't a true 16bit system. It has an 8bit cpu and you can't change that fact". Or something along those lines and probably more crudely put.
The bit wars are still going strong today in the retro scene. They might have evolved a bit into other terms in the PSX/Saturn/N64 era, but it's pretty much still the same ball and chain there as well, in todays discussions.
Putting aside all the examples of great games on the system for just a sec (yeah, I know that sounds crazy), it's probably true to say that the PCE/TG appeal is the 'underdog' system for most PCE fans. And/or its obscurity as whole (though usually a Japanese game thing), relatively speaking.
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Lol, we had a huge thread about bit-wars I the pce forum.
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Most people don't even know how many "bits" any of the current gen systems are...I don't anyway, so I'm pretty sure the debate is dead.
It made a lot more sense when it directly effected the visuals. A 16-bit system can more easily handle a sprite with 16-bit color depth, a 16-bit audio chip can more easily handle 16-bit samples, but now...the processor bandwidth is massively beyond any reasonable depth of color. The human eye just can't see anything more defined than 24-bit color, and the current spec for DTS audio, which is WELL within the capabilities of any new system (license aside) is the best thing you're ever going to need.
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what do you mean by that?
Oh, BlackTiger was just repeating what morons have said in the past. He wasn't actually serious with his statements, lol
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I've found that the "bit wars" has evolved into something a bit different among non-hardcore gamers. It seems that a lot of (non technical) people are familiar with the term "8-bit", mostly because to an extent it's considered cool to be into retro games. A lot of them have no idea what the term actually means though, so I've met people who think that anything old and 2d is "8-bit".
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Most people don't even know how many "bits" any of the current gen systems are...I don't anyway, so I'm pretty sure the debate is dead.
It made a lot more sense when it directly effected the visuals. A 16-bit system can more easily handle a sprite with 16-bit color depth, a 16-bit audio chip can more easily handle 16-bit samples, but now...the processor bandwidth is massively beyond any reasonable depth of color. The human eye just can't see anything more defined than 24-bit color, and the current spec for DTS audio, which is WELL within the capabilities of any new system (license aside) is the best thing you're ever going to need.
most consoles use 32-64 bit CPU's not sure about GPU. I know the Wii only uses about 88MB main memory and 3 for the GPU so thats 91MB of memory for the whole system.
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Duh, what else would consoles use? lol.
and, GPUs are a different beast. They're not the same as a normal CPU.
I think my card has like a 350-bit memory interface with which to slam polygons around!!
and all kinds of other obnoxious crap that would only work for a video card. A real CPU would probably go >_O3ero4prevreg
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I've found that the "bit wars" has evolved into something a bit different among non-hardcore gamers. It seems that a lot of (non technical) people are familiar with the term "8-bit", mostly because to an extent it's considered cool to be into retro games. A lot of them have no idea what the term actually means though, so I've met people who think that anything old and 2d is "8-bit".
"8-bit" is the new "SNES", used to described most 2D graphics. "8-bit" is further reaching though, as "SNES" was mainly used to describe 32-bit+ graphics.
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Yeah, its nice that the world at large has a term like "8-bit" to describe a retro computer/console look, but most of the stuff they are describing actually looks much more 16-bit to me. Stuff like Paul Robertson's awesome as hell "demo" movies or that new video from Goldfish that's making the rounds...these things tend to use more than the normal 3-4 colors per sprint limit that most 8-bit systems had.
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Thats what happens when ignint sombitches get the retro-fever and start tarding it up. :)
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OK so I'll sum it up right here for the tardboyz...
Genesis = 7 BIT GRAFICS unless you are teh leet in which case you get 10.3 BIT GRAFICS
SNES = MOAR BITS you get 15 BIT GRAFICS
Turbo = 9 BIT GRAFICS unless you are Tomatheous in which case you get 18 BIT GRAFICS
TURBO WINZ f*ckARZ
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OK so I'll sum it up right here for the tardboyz...
Genesis = 7 BIT GRAFICS unless you are teh leet in which case you get 10.3 BIT GRAFICS
SNES = MOAR BITS you get 15 BIT GRAFICS
Turbo = 9 BIT GRAFICS unless you are Tomatheous in which case you get 18 BIT GRAFICS
TURBO WINZ f*ckARZ
WAT BABOUT BLSAT PORCESIMG.
SEAG DONED WAT NINTURBOBDONT.
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But the TG has Turbo Grafix! It has 16 of them!
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But the TG has Turbo Grafix! It has 16 of them!
16 GRAPHICK? THATS LIKE EGA DOS CRAP FOR BABIES. YOURE HIGH.
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The bit wars are still real to me damn it!