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Tech and Homebrew => Turbo/PCE Game/Tool Development => Topic started by: alexsduo on April 26, 2011, 08:33:15 PM
Title: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on April 26, 2011, 08:33:15 PM
Hey all,
I have always loved the way video games sounded, and I have been into chiptunes for a bit now. I purchases some stuff and have made some stuff, (midines, lsdj, synthcart, )
However, I love the TG stuff, and I was wondering if anyone has made any music with some kind of PCE/TG hardware? I have seen squirrel, and so on...I am wondering if anyone has burnt it onto the multi card or something else and used actual hardware?
this is pretty cool tho:
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: touko on April 26, 2011, 11:33:44 PM
Yes tomaitheous/malducci has made a xm player for pce/tg16 ..
It works very fine.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on April 27, 2011, 06:18:12 AM
That is really cool! I would assume that someone made a hes or other file, and then burned it to a rom to play on original hardware?
I am curious if there is any hardware like midines/lsdj, etc that you can make live music with nothing but a turbo and a hu or something similar?
thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: nodtveidt on April 27, 2011, 06:27:30 AM
Aetherbyte's Squirrel is a better option.
http://www.aetherbyte.com/
I don't think anyone's made a realtime music program for the PCE... but you could try checking on zeograd.com.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: TheOldMan on April 27, 2011, 07:26:11 AM
Thanks for the plug rover.
The problem with trying to do it live is the limited amount of RAM in the turbo. By the time you wrote a program to do it, you wouldn't have much space left to store the actual song. Arkhan and I have talked about this, and sorta decided it's not worth trying to do it live, since it's pretty easy to make a song and create a simple program to play it back. And we're not hardware guys, so making hardware to do it isn't in our future. (Though it anyone knows how to make a ram expander, let me know. I've been seriously thinking it would be nice to have, say, 128K of RAM and 128K of ROM on a card).
And come see us at the ccga show: http://www.ccagshow.com (http://www.ccagshow.com/). We might have a surprise or two for you squirrel users :)
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on April 27, 2011, 07:41:29 AM
Well, I would volunteer, but I don't know anything, anything.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: Arkhan on April 27, 2011, 11:07:57 AM
I make chiptunes for the PCE w/ Squirrel. Squirrel is an MML compiler. Aetherbyte makes Squirrel (Aetherbyte is me and TheOldMan, currently. Pending another person!). You can take MML from stuff like MSX, PPMCK, or even Mabinogi, put it into a .txt with the proper formatting, and send it through and get a thing to play back on the real hardware.
By proper formatting I mean: Follow the empty song template that comes with Squirrel and fill in the spaces with MML. There are tags for each channel, and other things like that. The readme is pretty good too! I wrote it! I tried to be thorough and clear.
I have a few other songs but they are for an upcoming game so I haven't released.
I did all the chiptunes for Insanity w/ Squirrel 1.0. Now we have Squirrel 2.0, and that will have some yayness added at some point. Right now though, it is the most fully featured way to make music on the PC Engine. You have the ability to do percussion, custom waveforms and envelopes, various effects, there are repeating/looping mechanisms. Good stuff.
If you are new to MML, feel free to post any questions on the forum at www.aetherbyte.com (http://www.aetherbyte.com/)
I like MML alot and would be more than happy to assist. MML rules. Screw trackers.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on April 27, 2011, 11:29:08 AM
I figured! I found it on the internets
Do you have a good guide to learning mml for idiots? I have tried tracking and it is kind of cool, but I will try some squirrel if it will make me cooler..
http://woolyss.com/chipmusic-mml.php
that seems pretty informative...
thanks!
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: Arkhan on April 27, 2011, 11:48:06 AM
That site basically details the oldschool of MML for closed platforms.
I say oldschool because that stuff is a clusterf*ck. It is awful. I am big on MML and even I think the stuff is a mess. There is alot of crap you have to setup with HuSIC/PPMCK that is a pain in the ass, and if you aren't sure what it even is, will scare you off forever.
Squirrel more closely follows what is in the Develo PC engine book, and borrows stuff from the MSX scene.
The MSX scene has used MML in commercial homebrew projects using a program called Musica.
The great thing about MSX mml w/ musica is that it is very tidy and very easy to get into. Because of this, I borrowed alot of concepts from it for Squirrel's file layout. The proof that it is a good working idea is the fact that MSX sceners have used it for decades now. So if anyone feels like badmouthing something Squirrel is doing or thinks its a bad idea or doesnt work, take it up with 20+ years of MSX development.
I suggest you download Squirrel from aetherbyte.com and read the instruction file. It breaks things down as best as I could. If you have more questions, ask away on my forum!
It has some preset waveforms and envelopes. You are all set to make noise from the get-go. No dicking around defining waveforms or setting up hardware information. Once you are more comfortable you can always experiment!
I packed in some example files as well so you can see stuff in action.
The other nice thing about MML is that it was designed as a way to easily punch sheet music into a computer for playback. If you know how to read sheet music or are a composer, learning MML and then putting it to use will be a very nice way to make music.
If you aren't like that, don't worry! You can always cheat. Grab some kind of MIDI song creating program. Make sure you account for PCE hardware limits (6 channels!), and make MIDI songs. Then theres this program called 3MLE that converts MIDI tunes to MML for Mabinogi (a newer MMO that uses .mml files. More proof that MML kicks ass).
You can take the converted data out of the 3MLE program and copy paste it into a squirrel file and be listening to bleepbloops in no time.
The only things to be wary of with 3MLE are the following:
Since percussion on the PCE is done strangely, you will almost always have to fix your drum sounds/beats/timing. Its not too awful, especially since my demo files have pretty nice drums defined. Drums are the hardest part of MML/chiptuning. Once you get familiar with it, you'll quickly find it as no big thing.
Mabinogi made up some special commands with respect to octaves. Sometimes they use shortcuts to drop/raise octaves. Its annoying. If you see errors during Squirrel compilation, theyre probably from that. I might make a program to fix these things. To fix them you have to manually edit the MML. it is usually just a matter of putting octave shifts, and the note in question back in place of the shortcut.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: TheOldMan on April 27, 2011, 01:47:13 PM
Quote
The other nice thing about MML is that it was designed as a way to easily punch sheet music into a computer for playback. If you know how to read sheet music or are a composer, learning MML and then putting it to use will be a very nice way to make music.
Yeah, it really is folks. I spent about 2 hours entering the majority of Godzilla by Blue Oyster Cult a couple of weeks ago. Most of that time was actually spent fixing typos and octave shifts, and re-building the test program. It's not flaming guitars or anything, but that's actually quite easy to fix once the melody is in :)
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: nat on April 27, 2011, 03:29:45 PM
Blue Oyster Cult rules.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: roflmao on April 27, 2011, 05:28:18 PM
Yes tomaitheous/malducci has made a xm player for pce/tg16 ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPg73WFemAA
It works very fine.
MooZ and I have something else in mind ;) The XM converter was cool, but doesn't touch the PCE's capabilities. It was just fun to mess around with. We want a native tracker, that runs on the system itself. And something extremely specific to the PCE/TG16. Both MooZ and I working on making PS/2 KB and PC mouse to PCE converters (I'm doing PIC since I've already done some pic 16' assembly projects and have spare chips, and he's doing Atmega 8bit versions). Although mednafen is still an option (since it supports Tsushin PCE keyboard and official PCE mouse) and is the only emulator to handle most of the new FX/etc that's been discovered (and some old ones used in the entire fire pro wrestling game line that most emulators still don't do). The problem is getting the data off the real system. I wrote a single bit output FM modulated square clock output on the sound channels, but that's a bit too technical for most people (requires some specific tools I wrote to decode the recorded wave file back into data. Originally wrote it to backup my BRAM from my real system to my PC. The other option was data-to-tilemap video output and capture card -> to decode utility. More complex than worth the effort for just 2k of data, but much faster transfer rate). MooZ looked into SD card reading/write via Atmega series. There's already a lib for it. Probably go that route (and hand assemble these to the fab'd PCBs for our selves and people that are interested).
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: touko on April 28, 2011, 08:30:26 PM
It's very cool, but why don't make a tracker for Pc, and exporting to pce format.. you will not be limited by pce memory..
Yes the sound generated is an approximation, but it will be more user friendly, IMO .. I think that a famy tracker like is the best way.
Squirrel is very good too, but you need to be musician and programmer to make musics, and for the moment is absolutely not easy to compose music without a strong background in mml.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: Arkhan on April 29, 2011, 11:31:29 AM
and for the moment is absolutely not easy to compose music without a strong background in mml.
Thats incorrect.
Like I said, you can convert MIDIs to MML files and place the data in a file and be good to go. There are a few videos of people who aren't MML experts that produced tunes with squirrel.
So you could just track in whatever you like, save a MIDI, and then get the MML...
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on April 29, 2011, 11:51:55 AM
That sounds really cool!
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: touko on April 29, 2011, 08:54:44 PM
and for the moment is absolutely not easy to compose music without a strong background in mml.
Thats incorrect.
Like I said, you can convert MIDIs to MML files and place the data in a file and be good to go. There are a few videos of people who aren't MML experts that produced tunes with squirrel.
So you could just track in whatever you like, save a MIDI, and then get the MML...
I have tried that, and for non musician is very hard to recompose the true music . for me "do,re,mi, fa, sol" it does nothing understandable :-p
But i appreciate the musics composed with your mml library .
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: Arkhan on April 29, 2011, 09:16:32 PM
and for the moment is absolutely not easy to compose music without a strong background in mml.
Thats incorrect.
Like I said, you can convert MIDIs to MML files and place the data in a file and be good to go. There are a few videos of people who aren't MML experts that produced tunes with squirrel.
So you could just track in whatever you like, save a MIDI, and then get the MML...
I have tried that, and for non musician is very hard to recompose the true music . for me "do,re,mi, fa, sol" it does nothing understandable :-p
But i appreciate the musics composed with your mml library .
you arent getting it.
You can make a song in a tracker, export that to a .MIDI, convert it with midi2mml programs, and place in squirrel file. Done. MODplug for Windows can export MIDIs.
If you go that route you barely need to know MML. The basic how-to in the provided .txt will get you far enough to be able to copy paste.
You can use a tracker instead. Those seem to be what the majority of people have raging erections for.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: touko on April 29, 2011, 09:51:49 PM
Ooooh, i 'll try this :D
Thanks ..
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: TheOldMan on April 30, 2011, 05:18:15 AM
You know, arkhan, you really ought to start a "how-to" thread here and show people how it's done. Or maybe two, one for 'tracker folks' and one for 'music notation' people....
The tricky part of the whole thing is getting the right envelopes and waveforms. Your songs might not sound -exactly- like they do in a tracker... :|
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: Arkhan on April 30, 2011, 07:55:11 AM
You know, arkhan, you really ought to start a "how-to" thread here and show people how it's done. Or maybe two, one for 'tracker folks' and one for 'music notation' people....
The tricky part of the whole thing is getting the right envelopes and waveforms. Your songs might not sound -exactly- like they do in a tracker... :|
I've thought about it, and maybe I finally should. At one time I converted a MIDI to MML and had it playing on the PCE in <3 minutes.
Keranu timed me.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on April 30, 2011, 02:12:13 PM
I would love to see some stuff...
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: nodtveidt on May 01, 2011, 04:30:55 AM
You can use a tracker instead. Those seem to be what the majority of people have raging erections for.
...only because MIDI composition software tends to cost an arm and a leg, and MOD composition software only costs time and a monthly copulation.
Tracker and MOD are not mutually exclusive terms. Plenty of trackers nowadays that aren't MOD format or hardware type related. Chip (PSG/etc) trackers, tracks for real synth chips, etc. There might be some people that use XM tracker in placement of MIDI+synth software setup (pro entry level compositions, if you will), but I'd imagine it's more to do with some specific advantage they're used to having/using. Case in point: I know Madbrain used a tracker for the OPL3 synth chip specifically because he could create high frequency triggered macros for instrument sounds that you could never get out of the chip via MIDI composition software. But that's the whole point of a tracker, it can be specific to the hardware on the lowest level. AFAIK, MIDI cannot.
I can't imagine the MIDI file retaining the FX types of the popular tracker formats, for exports/conversions (maybe some volume envelope timing/data position if you're lucky, though non that I've seen yet). You just end up with simple notes relative to timing (from my experience anyway, going back and forth between formats and midi). If that's the case (tracker->midi->mml), might as well do it all in MML to begin with (unless it's a conversion of someone else composition and you're just ripping the notes). Just bear down and learn MML. If that's your target format. I've directed a few people that do chiptunes in mml, asking about PCE, to Squirrel's site. Dunno if anything came of it.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: Arkhan on May 01, 2011, 08:06:16 AM
Tracker and MOD are not mutually exclusive terms. Plenty of trackers nowadays that aren't MOD format or hardware type related
Yeah, but some people still just call it all MOD software. welcome to slang.
Quote
But that's the whole point of a tracker, it can be specific to the hardware on the lowest level. AFAIK, MIDI cannot.
Protip: Use SysEx messages
Did you know FFVII's soundtrack is MIDI? :D
Quote
I can't imagine the MIDI file retaining the FX types of the popular tracker formats, for exports/conversions (maybe some volume envelope timing/data position if you're lucky, though non that I've seen yet). You just end up with simple notes relative to timing (from my experience anyway, going back and forth between formats and midi). If that's the case (tracker->midi->mml), might as well do it all in MML to begin with (unless it's a conversion of someone else composition and you're just ripping the notes). Just bear down and learn MML. If that's your target format. I've directed a few people that do chiptunes in mml, asking about PCE, to Squirrel's site. Dunno if anything came of it.
Ripping MIDIs to MML is a great way to learn MML......... you can figure out how to recreate the effects later. They're generally not that hard. Its nice to have working examples of songs if you're new to the whole thing.
also having MIDI and MML representations of a song makes the song more useful. MIDI is like universal musical magic.
Hint: Insanity was done with MIDI first, MML second.
The entire chiptune soundtrack for Insanity was produced in one sitting, in under 3 hours.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: spenoza on May 01, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
I assumed as much. The composing was decent but the music itself didn't actually sound all that great. Sounded like poor MIDI playback.
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on May 02, 2011, 06:25:01 AM
Maybe a bit off topic, but do any of you have or know where to locate a bunch of sound effects from turbo grafx / PCE games? I made a song about turbo grafx/ video games a bit back, and I was hoping to find a ton of cool sound effects...
alternatively, I cannot remmeber if there are any games that have a "sound test" or whatever like bayou billy for nintendo, where you can play specific sounds, and record them...
Title: Re: Anyone making chiptunes with PCE or TG?
Post by: alexsduo on June 29, 2012, 06:42:54 AM
I was thinking of getting one of these new fangled USB PC enginge/ TG cards, to see if someone can put a similar MIDI software like the Midines, where I can control saw, wave, noise and pulse from the NES, but from the TG. Like using a usb card, but with midi out, that would be milky chocolate tits.
I just got a TG-33 by Yamaha, so I am in a very musical mood...