The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles

[Johnpv]

I saw this when it was posted on Reddit.  Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but how many documented cases of these products causing problems have their been?  I understand that some EDs may be bad in theory, but have there *actually* been any problems?

I don't understand posts like this.  If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem?  When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem? To quote his article this is a great response

“Well, my device has been working properly for 2 years now.”
This is like saying: “I’ve been smoking for 2 years and I don’t have cancer. Therefore, smoking does not cause cancer.” If you believe this statement, you deserve to damage your retro console.

While there aren't specific documentations of everdrives killing TG16s or Super Nintendos there are documented cases of the 150 in 1's killing NES' and the MVS 161 in 1s killing plenty of MVS boards.  Plus how many consoles have died with people not knowing the reason to blindly attribute it to an everdrive you never thought would be an issue.  Unless someone was specifically looking for this it'd be hard to know over the last few years how many people it's happened to. 

Rene knows his shit, and I've never seen issues with his products, some with the chinese knock offs of his stuff but not with his particular products.  IMHO the reaction should be less to be blaise about the issue and hope for Krikzz and the maker of similar products to update their designs and release a better product. 

I'm glad someone brings this stuff to light, same with Voultar's recent video about the issues with Retro_Console_Accessories Genesis RGB cables and the boosted sync amp in them.

[SignOfZeta]

There no question that running components outside of their rated capacity is a half-ass measure unless you are building an F1 car or some other such bleeding edge stuff. The OEM would never spec a cart that draws this much so I don't see why it's acceptable for someone claiming to sell a quality product.

However, if your $175 flash card wastes a $35 system, who gives a shit? Especially since you "saved" so much money running flash cards in the first place.

[Johnpv]

Enough of those $35 systems get wasted and they're not going to be $35 systems any more. 

[SignOfZeta]

I was being sarcastic. The $175 flash card that wastes systems is clearly crap and deserves to die long before a Genesis or whatever that's been doing its job, probably flawlessly, even with weird modems and staking carts and whatnot, for decades.

[xelement5x]

I read the article and was having a hard time fully understanding which components in a system are actually being damaged by the higher 5V.  I can understand the wear on the cart (since it's taking more voltage than originally specified), but can someone explain this better?

https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/#What_Damage_Can_Be_Caused

Prolonged use of components outside of their specified tolerances inevitably leads to failure. On the console side, the stress is excessive current output on digital outputs when driving a logic high. On the cartridge side, the stress is excessive heat dissipation due to conduction of the clamping diodes. I have already heard from several friends that their NES consoles have died most likely due to their admittedly heavy use of cheap multicarts. These are particularly bad. I would avoid these like the plague. I suspect poorly designed Everdrives will require more time before we start seeing failures.

What does this mean?  Does it impact the voltage regulators which convert the power source in to 5V normally?  Or something else on a given board?

[Gypsy]

Well I know what should but also won't happen here. Krikzz should fix this shit at cost.

What sound do we hear when he would be asked to do this? Kricketzz.

There no question that running components outside of their rated capacity is a half-ass measure unless you are building an F1 car or some other such bleeding edge stuff. The OEM would never spec a cart that draws this much so I don't see why it's acceptable for someone claiming to sell a quality product.

However, if your $175 flash card wastes a $35 system, who gives a shit? Especially since you "saved" so much money running flash cards in the first place.

 

[Black Tiger]

IMHO the reaction should be less to be blaise about the issue and hope for Krikzz and the maker of similar products to update their designs and release a better product. 

I'm glad someone brings this stuff to light, same with Voultar's recent video about the issues with Retro_Console_Accessories Genesis RGB cables and the boosted sync amp in them.

Everyone is glad to be tipped off to potential problems, but these guys made videos strictly for tech experts and the rest of us are still waiting to find out what a flash cart would actually damage if it ever happened and specifically what kind of cables are considered "boosted".

Remember that playing real carts and CDs leads to your cart ports and CD drives, plus other important parts to wear out or break down.

[Gypsy]

I'll admit the video was a bit frustrating for me. I found it much more easier to read the article from the DBE guy.

What can actually happen if something goes wrong with that cable? I've had and used one for years now. Including being fed to two different things (pvm and dvdo processor) and never had any issues. It was never directly plugged into the display though, as I had to use a break out cable. So yeah maybe someone smarter than me can answer it simply, what could go wrong using the cable as-is?

[Jibbajaba]

I'll trade your TED 2 for my TED 1.3.

Thank you.

I have the original TED.

I saw this when it was posted on Reddit.  Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but how many documented cases of these products causing problems have their been?  I understand that some EDs may be bad in theory, but have there *actually* been any problems?

I don't understand posts like this.  If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem?  When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem?

Dude, in my 40 years on this earth, scientists have gone back and forth countless times on whether or not it's OK to eat eggs, eat butter, drink wine, etc. etc.  MTBE is OK; MTBE is not OK.  It's fine to spray DDT in people's faces, oh wait no it causes reproductive problems.  I get that in theory these devices are not optimized for the hardware on which they are running.  Comparing this to a car recall is ridiculous.  We're talking about video games.  Wake me up when peoples' systems actually start taking shits en masse and maybe I'll care.

[Gypsy]

The point is more that this is an easy enough fix to implement, that wouldn't even cost much. Especially given the massive premium that Kricketzz charges.

Also, isn't it better to catch it before systems die off in bulk? Obviously in the scheme of things, it's just video games but this goes back to the premium product + easy fix point.

[SignOfZeta]

It's bad design, period. If someone builds a house for four with a heating system from a one bedroom apartment there are consequences.

Also, it's not something like eggs being good/bad for you. Humans and eggs don't have spec sheets. Nobody knows WTF is really going on with natural organisms. These flash chips have spec sheets from their actual manufacturers that say, flatly, that 5V is too much. It would be like if God himself sent an email to you that said, "eat one egg a day". These are cheap ass designs by questionable people. There is no interpretation. You don't put ten lbs of sausage into a five pound sack.

[ClodBuster]

Even without having clicked the link from Joe yet, I can guess from the posts here in this thread that the problem is as simple as Ohm's law. Feed a component (flash cart) more voltage than it was designed for, then it will draw more current from the device (console), than both the component as well as the device are designed for, resulting in heat and thus damage.

[SignOfZeta]

I read the article and was having a hard time fully understanding which components in a system are actually being damaged by the higher 5V.  I can understand the wear on the cart (since it's taking more voltage than originally specified), but can someone explain this better?

https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/#What_Damage_Can_Be_Caused

Prolonged use of components outside of their specified tolerances inevitably leads to failure. On the console side, the stress is excessive current output on digital outputs when driving a logic high. On the cartridge side, the stress is excessive heat dissipation due to conduction of the clamping diodes. I have already heard from several friends that their NES consoles have died most likely due to their admittedly heavy use of cheap multicarts. These are particularly bad. I would avoid these like the plague. I suspect poorly designed Everdrives will require more time before we start seeing failures.

What does this mean?  Does it impact the voltage regulators which convert the power source in to 5V normally?  Or something else on a given board?

Basically, electronic circuits are designed with a balance. If you have 5V pushing a motor you're expecting the motor to consume a certain about of current if you put a 3V motor in its place it...may spin faster, for a while, but even if it doesn't fall apart from going too fast it will eventually fail from excessive current that it can't use.

With data, I admit I'm not as experienced as I am with more conventional electrical loads. However the concept is the same. You now have less impedance than a normal cart. Therefore the 5V is going to push more current through the flash than the flash is rated for. But it will not only put more through the flash than it expects but you are flowing more current THROUGH THE ENTIRE CIRCUIT (as always, current flow through a circuit is the same everywhere), most of which Sega made,  which means your poor Genesis is now being asked to supply more amps than it was supposed to but it's also experiencing that over-current through...well, exactly what I'm not sure, and it depends on the system, but I think its possible you could lose RAM, CPU, or anything else that lives on the cart bus.

This news isn't going to stop me from using flash carts but it does make me kinda not want to buy any more until they start designing entire projects instead of just wiring flash directly to your cart slot. This has less to do with reliability and more to do with just not wanting to support hacks.

[ClodBuster]

The thing is, these flashcart designers could have easily dropped in a series resistor acting as a simple voltage divider. Just as you do with simple DIY LED applications to prevent them from being damaged through overcurrent.
Or have a proper voltage regulator.

This is nothing fancy, pretty much everybody who attended electronics class at school once built a voltage divider.




-----

By the way, Joe: Thank you very much for making aware of the article you linked, I'm reading it right now. I'm shocked to see some flash carts neglecting even the simplest princliples of good basic electronics design, and I'm not even talking about correct voltage levels but also other things that upset me (no proper ground planes, etc.).


-----

I will take a closer look at my gamingenterprisesinc LowCost Flash HuCard. Quite a coincidence my Turbo Duo died a few days after I had the cart inserted for the first time...

[SignOfZeta]

Would just a resister work? I don't think it's that simple, but regardless, it's clearly achievable.