Author Topic: CRAPCOM  (Read 1155 times)

Lochlan

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2008, 03:02:40 PM »
At no time did Keranu discuss "wholly original" games.

Um, no kidding?  I mentioned that because his main criticism was the derivative nature of the games he was discussing -- re-read my reply if you don't understand the context.

The Street Fighter series will likely be a target in an upcoming volume, but fans (not necessarily teh most(!) diehardest) of Capcom and SFII trash both on a daily basis for the same reasons Keranu singles them out.

I believe that SFIICE and SSFII were worthy upgrades, but the Turbos aren't drastically different.

LOL.  If you don't see the huge differences SSF2 and Super Turbo (which are many, including super moves), I don't know what to tell you.  SF2' and SF2' Hyper Fighting I'll give you, because unless you're obsessed like I am you might not notice the variations between characters.

The point is that these differences -- which appear small to someone who isn't a fan of the series -- change the overall balance of the game in a way that requires any half-decent player to rethink their strategies.  In a fighting game, even the (seemingly) most subtle changes such as move priority or damage can completely change how the game is played.

Personally, I think that there's nothing wrong with the updates Capcom and other companies make to their street fighting series. Most opinions from what I read online seem to differ.

Maybe if those opinions are from non-fighting game fans -- but if these unnamed opinions are coming from people who don't know any better then their opinions are uninformed at best -- so who cares?

Keranu isn't focusing on Capcom while ignoring the industry as a whole. The reason he's taking Capcom to task, is because he feels that they are the highest regarded of the worst offenders. But either way, this stunning article is about Capcom.

And I think that this article about Capcom is misguided and misleading.

Nobody criticizes the review of a shooter series or game because they did not choose to review the entire genre as a whole.

Wow, talk about irrelevant.  His "article" isn't a review of anything -- it's a retrospective of the practices of one game company.  Like it or not, despite his disclaimer, the implications are that Capcom is and has always been particularly bad about this sort of thing -- which is completely ridiculous, because they're simply engaging in the same practices every other game company has since the beginning of video games.
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Keranu

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2008, 05:57:50 PM »
Thanks for actually going through with this and doing such a thorough job. I've been hesitant to ask you about it from time to time, since it could very well draw negative attention to LaZer Dorks. It was a good idea beginning with a disclaimer. I'd keep the disclaimer at the beginning of each volume.
Thanks for the comments! You'll of course always be my most respected opponent in Capcom debates! I wasn't planning on keeping the disclaimer for future chapters, but that might be a good idea actually since a lot of people might jump right into the Mega Man or whatever chapter first.

Quote from: Black Tiger
So far it's not too damning as an argument, but is very entertaining as a point of view and general Capcom profile. I can't wait until you get to the good/bad stuff like Mega Man. :twisted:
Yes I too can't wait until I get to the much meatier topics  :mrgreen: ! This introduction, as I've posted, turned out to be a ton of fun though because of all the old arcade shooters I've played. I wish I could remember the name of this one game I came across, but basically it was a an arcade game from the 70's that was in black and white and used the same kind of stretching effect Axelay did and had you dropping bombs on houses and stuff. Really fascintaing for it's time.

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The size of the Crapcom logo reminds me more of crappy Mode 7 effects than Capcom though. :wink: Which also reminds me of a point you may or may not want to consider when you reach the SNES era. Capcom's SNES games didn't abuse Mode 7 effects the way most developers did. Most of their original console games and SNES ports were heavy on hand drawn artwork and clean touched up pixel art and they weren't afraid to use real animation in place of cheap fx. Just compare the battle scenes between FFIV - FFVI and Breath of Fire I & II.
If you can guess where I ripped that Capcom logo from, I'll give you a virtual cookie ;) .

But yes I won't argue with you; Capcom had excellent pixel artists, from any period of their life span really. I think that's probably one of the reasons why they are so successful because they put out, clean, attractived stylized art. Of course that won't stop them from using the same graphics for another sequel, or two, or three ;) .

Quote from: Black_Tiger
From what I understand, when they use a date with "XX" (19XX), it means that it's an alternate reality.
What about the even more technlogically impressive 1944  :mrgreen: ? Ah well, lazers are more fun than bullets anyways.

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Let's see Code Name: Viper/ Dead Fox ripped off Rolling Thunder and got away with it....
Hey anymore information like this is appreciated and could be used for future reference :) ! Speaking of which, does anyone know anything about a Japanese dude(s) vandalizing one of Capcom's buildings with spray paint or something like that? My brother mentioned this to me (said it was on the Capcom wiki, but I didn't see it) and would love to know more about this if it happened.

Quote from: Lochlan
I did not like this article.

Your main criticism seems to be that Capcom's games are derivative.  You admit at the beginning of the article that Capcom is not the only company that does this, but I submit to you that every game developer does and that the vast majority of all releases are derived from other games.  Nolan Bushnell stole pong; Space Invaders is a rip off of Breakout; every Japanese RPG ever is derivative of early US RPGs; and the list goes on.

There is a very small list of games that I would consider to be wholly "original", and they were all made in the 80's.
I think Black_Tiger's interpretations on my article pretty much summed up everything.

I agree with you that there are very few games that could be considered wholly original, but that's not my point with this article. My purpose of the article is exactly what Black_Tiger said: "The reason he's taking Capcom to task, is because he feels that they are the highest regarded of the worst offenders.". I could make this article about any company, but I chose Capcom because I feel that they aren't criticized nearly as much as other companies like Nintendo or Sony.

I wouldn't take my introduction chapter so seriously, it's just there to give a brief history on Capcom and as I sarcastically said in my article, it builds on the "evil" foundations of Capcom's future. I really don't have anything against the games I mentioned in the first chapter, they are just used as a placement for future volumns. I even somewhat acknowledged this in the article when I said "Considering Vulgus was Capcom's first game, I shouldn't be hitting it so hard and overall it is a fun game.".

Quote from: Lochlan
Furthermore, your disparaging comment about 1943 kai as an "update" made be pause.  (Apparently a game can't be rated on its own merits?  Perhaps you think that a sequel/update has to have a certain number of original elements to qualify as a new experience?) It leads me to believe that a future article will criticize the Street Fighter series, although I hope I am incorrect.  People who are not fighting game fans can laugh, but each one of the five versions of SF2 is drastically different.  The subtle differences between moves changes the dynamic of the games.
If I were to review 1943 Kai, I would pretty much give it the same score as 1943: Battle of Midway since it's basically the same game (and again, I like 1943). I just questioned why Capcom would bother with such a small update. I will of course be going indepth on the Street Fighter series and I am (or was) a HUGE fighting game fan. As stated in the disclaimer, I considered SF2 to be a "legendary revolution" and I feel that it's not only Capcom's most important game, but one of the most important video games ever made period. I appreciate what was included in the updates (and again, I would rate each game by it's own merits), but I think it was just a little excessive by being too little too many times. You can read some of my thoughts on the updates in this thread for the time being.

Quote from: Lochlan
I do not disagree with your sentiment, but in my opinion the fact that you focus on Capcom instead of the industry as a whole undermines your argument.
I've already acknowledged the fact that the whole industry likes to do sleezy things. Again, I chose Capcom specifically because I think "they are the highest regarded of the worst offenders.".

Quote from: Lochlan
Wow, talk about irrelevant.  His "article" isn't a review of anything -- it's a retrospective of the practices of one game company.  Like it or not, despite his disclaimer, the implications are that Capcom is and has always been particularly bad about this sort of thing -- which is completely ridiculous, because they're simply engaging in the same practices every other game company has since the beginning of video games
As said above, the introduction chapter is a set up and not to be taken so literally. You're right, every company essentially derives elements of their games from another, but as the series moves on I'll be able to focus more on other things.

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I hope this is just a joke and you really don't hate Capcom.
I don't necessarily hate Capcom. As the disclaimer says, I felt they were a solid developer in the late 80's and that I felt hate is too strong of a word to use for anything. I may say "I hate Capcom" in a sentence, but I don't completely mean I hate anything with Capcom's name on it. If I play a Capcom game that I haven't played before, I try to keep an open mind with it.

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Keranu, this article was worth it just for priceless comments like this. :P
Haha yeah :mrgreen: .
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Black Tiger

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2008, 06:54:58 PM »
LOL.  If you don't see the huge differences SSF2 and Super Turbo (which are many, including super moves), I don't know what to tell you.  SF2' and SF2' Hyper Fighting I'll give you, because unless you're obsessed like I am you might not notice the variations between characters.

The point is that these differences -- which appear small to someone who isn't a fan of the series -- change the overall balance of the game in a way that requires any half-decent player to rethink their strategies.  In a fighting game, even the (seemingly) most subtle changes such as move priority or damage can completely change how the game is played.

This is how sports fans view the same game that they buy every year with tweaks and updated stats. It may alter the balance of the game, but its still just another version of the same game. If you have to be "obsessed" to really notice the differences, then it should be safe for a normal person to argue that they aren't so "drastic".

If you alter any game it can completely change the "dynamic" of how it's played. All you need is a Game Genie to make any game "Super [insert title] Turbo EX Plus". Capcom themselves started making updates to SFII to compete with Game Genie-like hacks.

Like I said, I appreciate updates for street fighting games. But I'm not going to call a normy 'crazy' for not being 1337 enough to know better than to potentially criticize a company for putting out 5 versions of the same game within 3 years. At least the same sports game is put out only once a year.

Keranu's taking heat not even because he might say the games are bad, but simply because he might take Capcom to task for putting out so many versions of one game so quickly.

This kind of attitude towards Capcom in particular (more so than the industry as a whole) is exactly why Keranu made this series in the first place.
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Keranu

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2008, 07:18:24 PM »
Well put, especially the last sentence :) .

I personally think that Capcom has got to be the most excessive (whether that's a good or bad thing to you) game company out there, even more so than Nintendo. It's not just SF2, it's also Mega Man, Resident Evil, other SF spinoffs, and probably more. My articles won't only focus on rehashes of course, but also annoying game play features I've found in Capcom games, licensing issues, world domination, and more :) ! There are so many topics regarding Capcom that I could discuss or debate about with people, so I figured it would be best to compile a long, organized, series detailing all of these topics instead of just going at them all at once on nerd forums :P .

Oh and thanks to all of those who have left comments! I'm glad you enjoyed the first volume and I hope you'll continue to enjoy future volumes as well. I want to try to make this appealing to both Capcom haters and fans.
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Lochlan

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2008, 09:36:17 PM »
This kind of attitude towards Capcom in particular (more so than the industry as a whole) is exactly why Keranu made this series in the first place.

Well, I was talking about the Street Fighter series specifically -- and as I said, I hoped that my assumption about what Keranu "might" write about the series was incorrect.  I don't think Capcom is infallable nor do I think that criticising sequel-itis is blasphemy.

And as for "highest regarded of the worst offenders" -- this is probably true.

I do wonder if this derivation of gameplay is a bad thing, like the article clearly implies -- or if it's simply a natural evolution of the medium.

I could make this article about any company, but I chose Capcom because I feel that they aren't criticized nearly as much as other companies like Nintendo or Sony.

Now, maybe not -- I don't know how to gauge this.  In the 90s, the multiple versions of Street Fighter 2 (and the sequels and spin-offs) were the butt of many jokes, as was the seemingly unending Mega Man series.  Ironically, I think you may have chosen the stereotypical scapegoat on this issue to make the focus of your article -- but again, maybe that's not the "popular opinion" anymore, I don't know.

as the series moves on I'll be able to focus more on other things.

Fair enough -- I just thought that the "derivative games" issue was going to be the main thrust of your serialized argument given this first article.  I suppose I'll have to wait to read the rest to know what your fully-developed argument is.
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Keranu

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2008, 09:56:34 PM »
I do wonder if this derivation of gameplay is a bad thing, like the article clearly implies -- or if it's simply a natural evolution of the medium.
The article may give the impression that it's a bad thing, but I'm just using those examples as foundations for later in the series. For the most part, I think derivation is a natural evolution, but it can be somewhat of a bad thing too when a game has nothing of it's own and takes too much from others.

One point that I felt was strong in the article was dismissing Commando as the first real military run-n-gunner, which some have claimed it to be. Commando simply wasn't the first game of it's kind and didn't bring anything new to the series. It's success may or may not have encouraged SNK to make Ikari Warriors (which I think was really the game to popularize the fad), but Front Line is the first known game to create the formula and Ikari Warriors seemed to have borrowed (or "derived" :) ) more from Front Line than Commando.

I could make this article about any company, but I chose Capcom because I feel that they aren't criticized nearly as much as other companies like Nintendo or Sony.

Quote from: Lochlan
Now, maybe not -- I don't know how to gauge this.  In the 90s, the multiple versions of Street Fighter 2 (and the sequels and spin-offs) were the butt of many jokes, as was the seemingly unending Mega Man series.  Ironically, I think you may have chosen the stereotypical scapegoat on this issue to make the focus of your article -- but again, maybe that's not the "popular opinion" anymore, I don't know.
I think one thing that practically everyone can agree with is that Capcom does have a tendency to go a little overboard when making updates and rehashes of games; I just don't think I can write a Capcom rant without mentioning all of them :D .

Quote from: Lochlan
Fair enough -- I just thought that the "derivative games" issue was going to be the main thrust of your serialized argument given this first article.  I suppose I'll have to wait to read the rest to know what your fully-developed argument is.
It's really just looking at who Capcom is and how they started. I don't really have any beef with their early, early games (as opposed to their later ones), I just may as well point out a few criticisms and misconceptions along the way and use them as building blocks for later on.
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Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Sinistron

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2008, 06:18:43 AM »
Personally I love Capcom's classic titles- but this was a good read.  You don't always have to agree with something to get something out of it- or to be entertained.  Good job Keranu.

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Black Tiger

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2008, 06:59:58 AM »
Personally I love Capcom's classic titles- but this was a good read.  You don't always have to agree with something to get something out of it- or to be entertained.  Good job Keranu.

This pretty much sums up how I feel. I don't normally pick singular favorites, but Capcom is tied as one of my favorite brands. I don't love everything they've put out, but there are so many priceless games they've made that came out at the perfect times in my life that I don't think that they'll ever be able to tarnish their own overall image in my mind (of course, I still feel similar about Sega :wink:).

This is why I was intrigued when Keranu first started to express his 'hated' for them. :P But it became all the more interesting when he quickly drew the wrath of everyone who read any of his blasphemous comments. It seems as though people are only sometimes allowed to theoretically question some of Capcom's single games or series, but as soon as you target the company itself you're out of the gang. [-X
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T2KFreeker

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2008, 06:46:12 PM »
This was written quite well man. Good read and I look forward to the rest. U am a huge Capcom fan, but I like to read the different educated opinions from people. Nice! 8)
END OF LINE.

Keranu

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2009, 09:58:41 PM »
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

esteban

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 12:45:04 AM »
I'll read Volume II... but of course it is all bunk. :)

Capcom = good stuff.
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Black Tiger

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 01:36:25 PM »
I've been meaning to ask you how Volume II was progressing. I'm glad not only that it's finally out, but that it covers a different topic and is not just a run down of each major series and why they suck (I'd still be interested in seeing that too though :wink:).

I'll wait until I have some free time to post some responses. The one comment I'll make is that technically Rambo is just a guy with a red headband. Yet he's so iconic that all you have to do is put a red headband on a character, give them a weapon and people instantly think "RAMBO!" Ryu is recognized by the combination of his red headband and gi. Without the headband, people are more likely to spot someone in a dojo wearing a white gi and think "KARATE KID!" :)
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guyjin

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2009, 01:56:27 PM »
Playstation - Resident Evil series. A mature game for the more maturely perceived 32-bit system.
Xbox 360 - Dead Rising. Americans like this kind of stuff, put her on the 360!
Wii - Zack & Wiki. Non-violent family entertainment, need I say more?

except resident evil 4 has already come out on the Wii, and Dead rising is about to.

you're wrong about God, and you're wrong about Capcom.  :P :twisted:
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Joe Redifer

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2009, 03:24:42 PM »
Capcom IS God!

Turbo D

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Re: CRAPCOM
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2009, 04:17:19 PM »
 :clap: The second article is awesome! I agree with so many points in it! Damned Mega Man; I always thought he looked gay in that bikini. lmao. Also, Ryu is the most generic character ever, straight down to that common name (Ryu, sometimes Ryo, is short for tons of common Japanese names.) And another thing!; that Nero guy from dmc4 is an emo bitch! Ya, I said it! He spent most of the game crying and pounding on the ground in a gay childish temper tantrum. I was very disappointed with dmc4. I'd tell you guys the main reason, but I'd rather not spoil it for anyone who was foolish enough to buy it. If all of that wasn't enough to get me pissed off at Capcom, I had to wait to 2 and a half hours in the cold to get into the Street Fighter 4 launch event last thursday. By the time I got in, most of the giveaways had been given away. And I RSVPed! But ya, the launch event was worth it as I got to catch DJ Qbert's second performance. I also got a free Ryu headband and Sf4 poster. Oh ya, I also got to play the game before all of you! :P