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Non-NEC Console Related Discussion => Console Chat => Topic started by: guyjin on April 29, 2007, 05:37:58 AM
Title: Nintendo's best console
Post by: guyjin on April 29, 2007, 05:37:58 AM
Wii Wiiport, you decide! :roll:
*the statement from sega's best console applies
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Tatsujin on April 29, 2007, 05:53:12 AM
teh SFC. what a question!?
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: runinruder on April 29, 2007, 06:05:02 AM
Ugh, they're all so bad. Most NES games are so antiquated that they're practically unplayable now, the SNES never had much aside from Super Castlevania IV, and the GameCube and Wii are both complete jokes.
I guess I'll pick the N64, if only for the amazing Ocarina of Time.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 06:38:46 AM
Duh. SNES. Not only Nintendo's best console, but the best console of all time. The amount of awesome games is unlimited. It is the only old console that I still use every day (or even use whatsoever, no other old system holds up today for me).
The NES is also good. The unlimited amount of good games is here as well, even though the overall quality is lower than that of the SNES. N64 is great too, but it didn't feature an unlimited amount of games. :P
Gamecube and Wii are jokes.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: termis on April 29, 2007, 06:58:42 AM
SNES. Tons of good games on there for sure.
I only wish there wasn't the slow CPU bottleneck, and it had a CD add-on (Or a CD add-on that took care of that bottleneck as well). That would've ruled.
Never even touched a gamecube, and never played the Wii for more than 20 minutes. I'm definitely old-school.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on April 29, 2007, 09:12:55 AM
NES, since it has the best games. 8)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 29, 2007, 09:17:55 AM
SNES is the best Nintendo system, However I wish it used something like the Genesis's CPU instead of the weakass chip it has, it could have DOMINATED AND KILLED Sega right then if it did.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on April 29, 2007, 09:58:38 AM
NES by a decent stretch.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: gundarN on April 29, 2007, 10:11:40 AM
SNES for me; I've never owned a NES, and I'm not sure if I'd like it that much.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 29, 2007, 10:23:17 AM
NES is alright, but IMO not as good as the Master System.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 12:11:53 PM
SNES is the best Nintendo system, However I wish it used something like the Genesis's CPU instead of the weakass chip it has, it could have DOMINATED AND KILLED Sega right then if it did.
Well they did DOMINATE and KILL Sega... at least in Europe. :P I don't really get why everybody's complaining about the CPU though... I don't see a problem with it. I think the SNES is a very impressive machine for its time. Unlike the MD/PCE.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 29, 2007, 12:22:51 PM
Well they did DOMINATE and KILL Sega... at least in Europe. :P I don't really get why everybody's complaining about the CPU though... I don't see a problem with it. I think the SNES is a very impressive machine for its time. Unlike the MD/PCE.
The SNES IS very impressive, but it can't do Genesis speed games without massive slowdown.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: nodtveidt on April 29, 2007, 12:44:24 PM
SNES wins by a landslide against the NES, and then the Wii, Gamecube, and the worst of them all, the N64.
The SNES really was plagued with a turtlish CPU. It's an interesting chip, although pretty stock. I wonder why they opted for such a low-power CPU yet had a special sound chip made specifically for the console. Oh wait...that's right...because the CPU would already be so busy with number-crunching that handling music and sound too would have been more than it could cope with for complex programs. The fastest SNES game I've seen is Uniracers...sure, it zips along, but look at the simplistic graphics. Designers HAD to cut corners just to get decent performance. And it's not like stock 65816's didn't come faster...they just didn't opt to use said faster chips (probably financial reasons behind this). This lack of CPU power created a "tolerance" for slowdown.
I once spoke with someone who claimed that they were able to increase the performance of the SNES by tweaking the clock chip. I don't know if this was true or not. However, back in the NES days, a friend of mine and I removed the 6502 from an NES machine and inserted a 4MHz 65C02. A lot of games wouldn't run, but a couple did. They were quite unplayable though...it seems that the interface chip is governed by the CPU and operates too fast if the CPU speed is increased. So the controls worked too fast for the games, events were skipped left and right.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 12:50:31 PM
It's pretty easy to overclock the SNES. Use this (http://www.undergroundcm.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=38) guide.
Here's a video of an overclocked SNES in action. (http://www.undergroundcm.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=47)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: guyjin on April 29, 2007, 01:08:17 PM
I once spoke with someone who claimed that they were able to increase the performance of the SNES by tweaking the clock chip. I don't know if this was true or not. However, back in the NES days, a friend of mine and I removed the 6502 from an NES machine and inserted a 4MHz 65C02. A lot of games wouldn't run, but a couple did. They were quite unplayable though...it seems that the interface chip is governed by the CPU and operates too fast if the CPU speed is increased. So the controls worked too fast for the games, events were skipped left and right.
I thought that the NES didn't use a stock 6502, it used a variant called the Ricoh 2A03 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricoh_2A03), not only the CPU, but the sound chip/contoller as well.
So not only would the games be insanely fast, they'd also have no sound.
I think the 6502 swap would be entirely possible on a C64, though.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on April 29, 2007, 01:14:16 PM
SNES is the best Nintendo system, However I wish it used something like the Genesis's CPU instead of the weakass chip it has, it could have DOMINATED AND KILLED Sega right then if it did.
Well they did DOMINATE and KILL Sega... at least in Europe. :P I don't really get why everybody's complaining about the CPU though... I don't see a problem with it. I think the SNES is a very impressive machine for its time. Unlike the MD/PCE.
The MD & PCE were released in the time of the NES & SMS. The SNES was released shortly before the 3DO and Jaguar.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 01:20:29 PM
Here's a video of an overclocked SNES in action. (http://www.undergroundcm.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=47)
With results like that, why would you want to? :shock:
Well that was a super overclocked one. :) It works fine if you overclock it a little less, hehehe.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: termis on April 29, 2007, 01:43:08 PM
Overclocking is something that can be done for whole bunch of other systems, but I never really understood the appeal behind it. True that a few games will run smoother, but the cons > pros. Unlike PC games, since console games are designed and tested with that single setup, vast majority of the games would run at speeds that are faster than what was intended by the developers. Add the incompatibility & sound warping issues, and I don't really see a point.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on April 29, 2007, 02:19:43 PM
Overclocking is something that can be done for whole bunch of other systems, but I never really understood the appeal behind it. True that a few games will run smoother, but the cons > pros. Unlike PC games, since console games are designed and tested with that single setup, vast majority of the games would run at speeds that are faster than what was intended by the developers. Add the incompatibility & sound warping issues, and I don't really see a point.
Agreed.
And speaking of which, there is a weird glitch I've noticed with my SNES (it's the smaller American model). Sometimes while playing a game, specifically Secret of Mana, it will screw up and the game will run insanely fast for no reason. I'm not sure if it's my SNES doing it or certain carts, but it's really weird.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 02:27:55 PM
Overclocking is for fun, not because it is necessary. Also because it is cool. Therefore: overlocking = essential. :wink:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on April 29, 2007, 02:50:36 PM
I can understand overclocking just for curiosity's sake. But beyond that it is fairly useless.
Also I picked NES because it had lots of good games. The SNES had to rely on slow text adventure games like RPGs, though it does have plenty of real games that are good. The SNES itself is crippled and even early games required the "extra chip in the cartridge" crutch. Of course, the same can be said for the NES.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on April 29, 2007, 02:55:57 PM
Why isn't the Virtual Boy listed?
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on April 29, 2007, 03:00:32 PM
I can understand overclocking just for curiosity's sake. But beyond that it is fairly useless.
Also I picked NES because it had lots of good games. The SNES had to rely on slow text adventure games like RPGs, though it does have plenty of real games that are good. The SNES itself is crippled and even early games required the "extra chip in the cartridge" crutch. Of course, the same can be said for the NES.
Personally I don't care how the games are pulled off, whether with extra chips, hardware upgrades or entirely different consoles.
All that matters is the end result. Which is why I voted NES. It has the most games I enjoy playing by a huge margin.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 03:05:10 PM
Because it sucks? It cannot be voted as Nintendo's best console, simply because it isn't. :P
Also: It could be considered a portable. Something that's not present in this list whatsoever. Had they been, I would've voted for the original Game Boy. Why? Because it rules.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: guyjin on April 29, 2007, 03:07:33 PM
Consoles attach to televisions. As big as it is, the virtual boy is technically a portable, not a console.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: esteban on April 29, 2007, 03:33:43 PM
Ugh, they're all so bad. Most NES games are so antiquated that they're practically unplayable now, the SNES never had much aside from Super Castlevania IV, and the GameCube and Wii are both complete jokes.
I guess I'll pick the N64, if only for the amazing Ocarina of Time.
You're silly :) . NES / SFC is hands-down the best Nintendo system. :)
I agree with Black_Tiger, Joe, and Keranu. Tons of friggin' great games on the NES, and they are still very playable, despite what Mr. Sour-ruder says.
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on April 29, 2007, 03:49:09 PM
Whoops, I forgot this was for Nintendo's best "console" only, so no portables.
Quote from: steve
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Have you ever played Balloon Trip for Gameboy? It's a really awesome sequel to Balloon Fight! There is also this bonus game in Wario Ware: Smooth Moves for Wii that takes Balloon Fight and changes it to a third person perspective and you control it by "flapping" the nunchuck and Wiimote - lots of fun!
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: esteban on April 29, 2007, 04:05:32 PM
Whoops, I forgot this was for Nintendo's best "console" only, so no portables.
Quote from: steve
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Have you ever played Balloon Trip for Gameboy? It's a really awesome sequel to Balloon Fight! There is also this bonus game in Wario Ware: Smooth Moves for Wii that takes Balloon Fight and changes it to a third person perspective and you control it by "flapping" the nunchuck and Wiimote - lots of fun!
Crap, looks like I'll have to find Balloon Trip for Gameboy. Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: TR0N on April 29, 2007, 04:50:19 PM
NES all the way follow by SNES then Wii.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on April 29, 2007, 04:56:54 PM
Whoops, I forgot this was for Nintendo's best "console" only, so no portables.
Quote from: steve
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Have you ever played Balloon Trip for Gameboy? It's a really awesome sequel to Balloon Fight! There is also this bonus game in Wario Ware: Smooth Moves for Wii that takes Balloon Fight and changes it to a third person perspective and you control it by "flapping" the nunchuck and Wiimote - lots of fun!
Crap, looks like I'll have to find Balloon Trip for Gameboy. Thanks. :)
It's really cool. Each level has a unique design and you can remove your balloons to walk and jump on platforms (and by tapping down, you can inflate your balloons again), not to mention some boss fights! There's also a fun scoring mode too.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: grahf on April 29, 2007, 05:32:47 PM
SNES, followed by a tie between NES and Gamecube. My SNES gets more play than any other system, even *slightly* beating out the PCE.
I can see the gamecube becoming a cult system like the Dreamcast in the future. Its got the BEST traditional controller ever: the Wavebird, and the absolute best addon ever: the gameboy player. Despite getting pinched out last generation, there are a TON of really quality games on it. It doesnt have the sheer volume of games the PS2 did, but there are so many incredible ones available that its more than most of us "grown up" have time to play anyhow.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 29, 2007, 11:58:52 PM
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Even...? Even? What do you mean by "even"? Balloon Fight happens to be the greatest piece of software any human's ever written. It is THE game. This is what justifies the video game industry. It could easily live on with just this single title released again and again and again...
Needless to say, I think Ballon Fight's all right.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 30, 2007, 12:02:03 AM
I can see the gamecube becoming a cult system like the Dreamcast in the future. Its got the BEST traditional controller ever: the Wavebird, and the absolute best addon ever: the gameboy player. Despite getting pinched out last generation, there are a TON of really quality games on it. It doesnt have the sheer volume of games the PS2 did, but there are so many incredible ones available that its more than most of us "grown up" have time to play anyhow.
I don't see what's so great about the Game Boy Player, unless you like to play blurry and poorly emulated games on your TV. It should've been a real Game Boy, not an emulator... It doesn't work very well (choppy scrolling in some games, etc). Besides, there aren't many GBA games worth playing anyway, especially not in the future. At least playing them on a real GBA/DS gives a sharp picture (depending on the games, many GBA games are intentionally made very blurry for some reason, giving them a very 1995-ish CG look).
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on April 30, 2007, 12:57:45 AM
Seldane,
Do you own a gameboy player?
I recently picked one up, because I do not like staring at a small screen to play a game, I prefer messing with things on a larger screen. I found out there were some games on the GBA that may interest me (such as the updated Link), and I can pick them up for cheap! Due to my dislike for handhelds I never looked much into it. When I read abotu the GB Player a few months ago, it seemed pretty cool! It would give me a chance to play GBA, GBC, and GB games on a large screen. Pretty much an updated Super Gameboy!
It's not perfect, but neither was the Super Gameboy I used to own. Not all of Super Gameboy's borders or colour palettes are here, though that's no big deal, Super Gameboy was ten years ago.
The picture looks sharp enough for me. I don't notice any blurring. Things may appear a slight bit softer, however.
Also, not sure what these choppiness is you talk of. If it's present on a GBP it is probably also present on a Gameboy. So far, the few games I've played around with on a GBP have been fluid and good looking.
This reminds me of when people who are used to DVD complain about VHS' appearance on a large screen. There is a limit to how nice these things are going to look once you blow them up larger. There is also how Gameboy games were designed for smaller screens, so it doesn't bother me if it looks a bit "off" sometimes due to being blown up on a larger screen.
Also, I think the guts of the Gameboy player are pretty much the same stuff in a gameboy, from what I read. I've never dismanted one, so I can't say for sure.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 30, 2007, 01:11:32 AM
I sure have a Game Boy Player. And a Game Boy Advance. The choppiness isn't there on the real Game Boy.I want the sharpest possible picture always. It would be cool to have a large monitor instead of a TV so that I could see each individual pixel just as in an emulator. That'd be sweet.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on April 30, 2007, 01:20:02 AM
I don't have a point of reference, so nothign much for me to say about perceived choppiness.
It works fine for me and the few games I play on it, which happens about once a week so far.
Computer monitors are of a higher resolution than Televisions (in general), much of what you see on a monitor will always look sharper than standard (not High) definition on a television.
I've only tried a GBP through S-Video, i do not have the pricey component cables, however that may improve the resolution a bit for the GBP.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 30, 2007, 01:22:36 AM
I'm using RGB for the Gamecube, so that's not the problem. I also use the sharpest video setting in GBP, but it still doesn't look nearly as sharp as, say, the SNES (also with RGB).
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on April 30, 2007, 01:29:19 AM
Well, still with RGB it does not approach the resolution a computer monitor is capable of. RGB is better than my video out on the GC, though.
In general, if it's a choice between having and not having any way to play these games on a large screen, I'll choose the ability to put these games on a larger screen.
For me, it looks "sharp enough", hah, about as nice as I recall the Super Gameboy being.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 30, 2007, 02:16:16 AM
I don't see what's so great about the Game Boy Player, unless you like to play blurry and poorly emulated games on your TV. It should've been a real Game Boy, not an emulator... It doesn't work very well (choppy scrolling in some games, etc). Besides, there aren't many GBA games worth playing anyway, especially not in the future. At least playing them on a real GBA/DS gives a sharp picture (depending on the games, many GBA games are intentionally made very blurry for some reason, giving them a very 1995-ish CG look).
How does playing an original Game Boy game on a Super Gameboy (SNES) compare to playing it on a Game Boy Player (GAMECUBE)?
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 30, 2007, 02:32:04 AM
I don't see what's so great about the Game Boy Player, unless you like to play blurry and poorly emulated games on your TV. It should've been a real Game Boy, not an emulator... It doesn't work very well (choppy scrolling in some games, etc). Besides, there aren't many GBA games worth playing anyway, especially not in the future. At least playing them on a real GBA/DS gives a sharp picture (depending on the games, many GBA games are intentionally made very blurry for some reason, giving them a very 1995-ish CG look).
How does playing an original Game Boy game on a Super Gameboy (SNES) compare to playing it on a Game Boy Player (GAMECUBE)?
Don't know. I don't have a Super Game Boy. SGB doesn't stretch the picture though, does it? Maybe it doubles the resolution or something, but the GB Player seems to stretch the resolution in odd ways, hence the blurry picture.
MrFulci: Playing old video game systems on a monitor will not increase the resolution of the games. They will still run in the same low resolution as the system outputs, as long as the monitor supports it. If it doesn't (which it normally won't) - it will display flicker. Or nothing.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: akamichi on April 30, 2007, 03:05:47 AM
Whoops, I forgot this was for Nintendo's best "console" only, so no portables.
Quote from: steve
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Have you ever played Balloon Trip for Gameboy? It's a really awesome sequel to Balloon Fight! There is also this bonus game in Wario Ware: Smooth Moves for Wii that takes Balloon Fight and changes it to a third person perspective and you control it by "flapping" the nunchuck and Wiimote - lots of fun!
Crap, looks like I'll have to find Balloon Trip for Gameboy. Thanks. :) It's really cool. Each level has a unique design and you can remove your balloons to walk and jump on platforms (and by tapping down, you can inflate your balloons again), not to mention some boss fights! There's also a fun scoring mode too.
Just got it today. :D Haven't played it yet though.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on April 30, 2007, 03:43:10 AM
Seldane, you said,
Quote
It would be cool to have a large monitor instead of a TV so that I could see each individual pixel just as in an emulator. That'd be sweet.
My reply was a bit vague. I was saying, in general, a computer monitor can handle resolution higher than a standard television. so emulated games on a computer monitor MIGHT look sharper than a television.
Kit,
I haven't fooled around with the Super Gameboy in about 10 years, though from what I recall going from gameboy to supergameboy was pretty nice. Things didn't look as sharp as the screen on a gameboy, however the "selling point" of the Super Gameboy (And Gameboy Player) is being able to play GB games on a larger screen. I get what I pay for, I'm not going to be terribly picky about the display of a game that is normally supposed to be played on a small screen the size of my palm. Plus the added features of colour palettes for mono colour GB games is pretty nice.
The GB player has a leg-up on the Super Gameboy. Granted, not all of the palettes and borders were placed on the Gameboy Player, The Gameboy Player supports many more games. The SGB only supports regular gameboy games (I think part of the marketing campaign for that was, "now play your gameboy games... IN COLOR!"), the GBP player supports those games, PLUS GBC and GBA.
Yeah, the picture is being, "stretched out". These games were designed with a small screen in mind.
ug, didn't think I'd type so much about this piece of hardware, expecially on a Pc Engine board, hahaha.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 30, 2007, 03:55:17 AM
Cool, thanks. I passed up a SuperGameBoy for like $3.00, now I won't be losing any sleep over that.
And if you really want to play your console games on a monitor, scope this:
Just like PS2 Linux - your monitor needs sync-on-green...
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: grahf on April 30, 2007, 04:03:12 AM
The gameboy player isnt emulation, its a complete GBA minus the screen & buttons, which it uses the cube for. The supergameboy was the same way, albeit with a gameboy processor.
Plus, you guys complete missed the whole point of the GBPlayer: It makes the gamecube into an actual CUBE :D
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on April 30, 2007, 04:08:20 AM
Kit,
If you have a lot of original gameboy games, and have another chance to pickup a SGB for around that price, go for it.
At the time of it's release, SGB was pretty cool. Mid-late 90's when I acquried one from a used video game shoppe at a cheap price, I brought it to a friend's house to show her how it worked, and she bought one soon after that visit so she could play the games on her television.
It's a decent toy, though it's limited in 2007.
Nice site, Kit. Signal converters can be awesome, yet also pricey.. I was recently weighing getting another switchbox or converting an composite to s-video so they could all share the same switch box. Due to the price, I opted for another switchbox.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: guyjin on April 30, 2007, 05:05:46 AM
Just got it today. :D Haven't played it yet though.
Sweet jeebus, I must have this! :D
Now, should I put in a preorder at my not-so-friendly game store, or should I import... hmm...
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 30, 2007, 05:14:35 AM
I've been looking for Tingle's Balloon Fight, but since the game was never for sale, finding it isn't easy. Damn Club Nintendo exclusives! :P
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: guyjin on April 30, 2007, 05:17:23 AM
Wait, who's this 'tingle'? and why would they not sell such an obviously awesome game? #-o
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on April 30, 2007, 06:09:52 AM
Tingle is a character from the Zelda series, first introduced in Majora's Mask. He's gotten very popular and has gotten two games of his own. This, and the new Tingle RPG for the DS. He's been voted as they gayest video character ever by some homosexuality site. :P
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Necromancer on April 30, 2007, 06:27:14 AM
SNES closely followed by the NES. With so many great games on the SNES, the later consoles don't even come close.
If you'll allow a write in vote, gimme the Color TV Game 15. Old-old school - that's just how I roll.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 30, 2007, 11:23:25 AM
Tingle is a character from the Zelda series, first introduced in Majora's Mask. He's gotten very popular and has gotten two games of his own. This, and the new Tingle RPG for the DS. He's been voted as they gayest video character ever by some homosexuality site 95% of the gaming community. :P
Fixed your quote for you.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: guyjin on April 30, 2007, 11:23:31 AM
Wow, I'd totally forgotten about Nintendo making pong clones.
but voting for a pong clone above even the n64 is beyond reason. [-(
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 30, 2007, 11:40:45 AM
Wow, I'd totally forgotten about Nintendo making pong clones.
but voting for a pong clone above even the n64 is beyond reason. [-(
It DOES look cooler than a Atari/Telegames PONG unit: (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Nintendo_tvgame_6.jpg)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: SignOfZeta on April 30, 2007, 01:05:28 PM
I voted SNES because it is, in itself, my favorite system ever. Regardless of my feelings for SNES-era stuff, Nintendo themslves should be most proud of that machine. It was very custom and aside from the PCE it can kind of be said to be a forerunner of todays "everything is custom" system design. Virtually all the top games of the day where either SNES exclusive, or better on SNES.
Other reasons:
The sound chip is pure butter. Easily the best game related thing Sony will ever make :) I would pay mad cash for a stand-alone keyboard with a SNES soundchip at its core.
The composite output is probably the best I've ever seen. Games like Tetris Attack and Final Fantasy VI just look wonderful.
The Famicom was more dominent, but honestly I never really cared for it. The arcade ports were almost all garbage (Ikari, Strider, WTF is this crap?) and while the MMCs made several impressive things spossible, they only seem to have been able to pull it off by making the system look like it was about to barf. I don't know how many NES brawlers I played where you could only seen the dudes' legs, or upper body, but never both at the same time. The NES's big strength was the pre-MMC stuff, IMO, like...Donky Kong, or Mario Bros. Not impressive, but at least solid and flicker-free.
The N64 blew chunks. Pace of good releases was about one a year through its whole life, and even most of those were loaded with fog. Most disapointing machine ever.
The Cube is like the N64, only not shit. Heavy emphasis on multi-player, which is good. A lot more original titles like Bomberman Land 2, Gundam (Pilots Locust, or whatever its called. I have it but I can't find it right now), Killer 7 (well, its Cube exclusive in Japan anway), Wind Waker. Also the GB Player is rad and there are more than enough Super f*cking Monkey Ball games, which I also love.
The Wii looks like it might be better than the Cube, but its hard to say.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 30, 2007, 01:14:38 PM
I would pay mad cash for a stand-alone keyboard with a SNES soundchip at its core.
Why? The SPC700 doesn't even have f*cking FILTERS... if you want a shit digital keyboard get the Kawai K4 (http://www.vintagesynth.com/kawai/kawaik4.shtml) and leave the SPC700 in the SNES.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on April 30, 2007, 01:15:09 PM
Hell, even Balloon Fight kicks your ass. I love that game.
Even...? Even? What do you mean by "even"? Balloon Fight happens to be the greatest piece of software any human's ever written. It is THE game. This is what justifies the video game industry. It could easily live on with just this single title released again and again and again...
Needless to say, I think Ballon Fight's all right.
Hahahaha. :) We agree on something :).
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on April 30, 2007, 02:22:18 PM
If only the Turbo could have tons of reverb in all of its games. If only, if only....
For you Joe, with apologies to black_tiger: http://www.savefile.com/files/681922
Not as much as the SNES though... ;)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: _joshuaTurbo on April 30, 2007, 03:52:59 PM
I voted SNES-
Heres how I would rate them in order-
1. SNES 2. NES 3. GC 4. Wii 5. N64
Probably too soon to rate the Wii, but its already better than the N64.
Matter of fact if you would consider the Virtual Boy a console- I would rate that ahead of the N64 as well!
Mainly because The VB tried something original, and the N64 had all the momentum in the world carrying over from the SNES. And it dropped the ball BIG TIME!!! It was SUCH A LET DOWN!!
The GameCube was a step in the right direction for nintendo, but had a hard time shaking off the stigma that the N64 left on the Nintendo name.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: GUTS on April 30, 2007, 03:56:23 PM
Whoever it was that was badmouthing the Gameboy player is completely and utterly wrong in every aspect. There is no blurriness, it's not emulation, and there is no choppiness that isn't present when playing on an actual GBA.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: TR0N on April 30, 2007, 04:22:20 PM
Whoever it was that was badmouthing the Gameboy player is completely and utterly wrong in every aspect. There is no blurriness, it's not emulation, and there is no choppiness that isn't present when playing on an actual GBA.
Agreed it's the reason i still have my, GC.
Thanks to that device it has let me get more use out my cube.
Plus it save me the trouble of getting a GBA... since i'm not a fan of handhelds.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: grahf on April 30, 2007, 04:30:33 PM
Gameboy Player for president!
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention the best part of the GBPlayer: the eject mechanism. Its f*cking fantastic! The eject on the US SNES is really springy feeling and tends to make the games fly out. The PAL and Japanese SNES have badass eject buttons. But Even those dont compare to the GBPlayers eject. BEST EJECT MECHANISM on any console, past present and future.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 01, 2007, 12:56:40 AM
What the? The Game Boy Player doesn't have an eject mechanism. :o It's phuggin' impossible to get the carts out of that thing, I have to lift the whole GC up in order to reach for that "handle" thing on the underside of the cartridge.
PS: GBP sucks. :P But I guess it's mostly because the GBA itself sucks. Pretty much not a single game worth playing on that system, no. Why? The graphics and sound is painful to watch/hear. Oh, and because of the blurry picture.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Digi.k on May 01, 2007, 01:37:35 AM
I quite liked the GBA player for the gamecube..
my old gamecube set up...which I honestly thought it was 'cute' the broadband adapter, ascii keyboard etc
I don't have them anymore but ever since PSO fell victim to hackers I honestly had no reason to keep a gamecube after that.. all sold off on ebay XD.
my old ASCII keyboard for gamecube.. had it shipped to the uk via EMS from hong kong was bloody expensive and was slightly pissed having the box getting slight damage in post! and those keys on that thing were tiny... (http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m113/secretsociety1/DSC01951.jpg)
and personally I think the SNES was the best mostly because I thought that companies like Konami, Square etc were at their best
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: grahf on May 01, 2007, 02:10:15 AM
What the? The Game Boy Player doesn't have an eject mechanism. :o It's phuggin' impossible to get the carts out of that thing, I have to lift the whole GC up in order to reach for that "handle" thing on the underside of the cartridge.
You'd be surprised how many people have no clue about the eject. I didnt even know myself until reading it online. Careful though, its capable of firing a gamepak halfway across the room if you dont respect its power
Curse those unstackable systems! And curse you PAL guys with your normal looking SNESs. Anyone want to trade a fresh american SNES for a Pal system?
Just get a SNES2... It's the same design as the Super Famicom Jr. but with the US logo and color scheme (and of course is a NTSC-using US playing gaming machine monster). The SFC Jr. is bottom right, SNES2 is bottom left: (http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/snes.jpg)
Also, the SNES2 will not yellow over time. FTW!
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: grahf on May 01, 2007, 11:11:03 AM
No svideo output on the evil minis :evil:. Ive owned a SFC junior in the past, as well as a mini or two (one of which became a portable). I'm currently using a Super Famicom with the cart slot widened a bit to fit US carts, like i've seen some of you PAL guys do to play US games.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 01, 2007, 11:30:10 AM
There's no SVideo out on the original SNES, either...
The original sure does support S-Video. [-X
I bought a clean complete SNES2, not realizing that it doesn't do S-Video. I've since purchased a couple original models, but just like the last 3 or 4 I bought before, they all have problems. :(
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 01, 2007, 12:40:29 PM
SNES is such a weak system! I've had at least six of them (two are still working). One being a mini model, but it never worked. Crap seller on Ebay. :)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 01, 2007, 12:52:04 PM
There's no SVideo out on the original SNES, either...
The original sure does support S-Video. [-X
I bought a clean complete SNES2, not realizing that it doesn't do S-Video. I've since purchased a couple original models, but just like the last 3 or 4 I bought before, they all have problems. :(
WTF, you mean the original ugly-ass brick SNES? Maybe with a cable perhaps, but there is no dedicated port...
I made a vid showing you that my SNES doesn't have it, I'll put it on Youtube in a sec...
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 01, 2007, 12:59:31 PM
There is no dedicated composite port, either.
I still have the Nintendo-brand s-video cable that they sold at Toys R Us.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 01, 2007, 01:20:22 PM
Quote from: Seldane
PS: GBP sucks. :P But I guess it's mostly because the GBA itself sucks. Pretty much not a single game worth playing on that system, no. Why? The graphics and sound is painful to watch/hear. Oh, and because of the blurry picture.
Are you...crazy? The GBA has the best library of any system since...the SNES. Actually, its a much better library than the SNES.
I'll be playing GBA when I'm 100 years old.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 01, 2007, 01:22:00 PM
Name one good GBA game.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 01, 2007, 01:39:23 PM
Ecks Vs. Sever.
And here's the vid - Completely usless now that I know it's a cable... but you can see how dirty my SNES is! (I haven't cleaned it up yet after not playing it for 10 years...)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on May 01, 2007, 01:46:09 PM
The SNES 1 I know for sure can support S-Video. Nintendo used the same jack (NTSC) for the A/V cables on the SNES, N64, and GameCube. However most gamecubes also have a jack for the composite video out cables which isn't present on the SNES or N^$ models (That I know of).
You can use the S-Video A/V cables with the eithe of those systems.
I've never had many problems with systems to just call a partiular type, "junk". Though, the Turbo Express does have that sound issue...
The Atari 5200 I used to own had the AWFUL controller problems. Controllers became useless.
NES had that fun flash that would occur after so many years. However, I found the game genie nearly always got around that issue, just don't enter any codes and it's as if you're not using a game genie.
Every system seems to have a special flaw that shows up after so many years.
Most of the time, when I encounter a damaged/peculiar system, it has to do with a loose jack. Most of those times it's a loose power jack, where the plug has to be held at an angle for the unit to stay powered on.
Seldane, i notice you "poo-poo" on a lot of stuff; pc engine, gb player, etc. What games and systems do you really like?
As far as good GBA games, I find the Final Fantasy 1 and 2 port to be pretty decent, along with Link and the Super Mario Bros 3 port. Though the voice in SMB3 makes me cringe, I wish there was an option to turn that off. Double Dragon for the GBA is supposed to be pretty decent, I may pick that up sometime.
What I enjoy about the GBA (with the GBP) is it's almost like a recent 2D system. The carts are a bit low in price, which helps. I'd say the GBA (through a GBP) is, "not bad".
Kit, insteresting vid, funny you point out the yellow, hah. Many of those systems didn't take long to yellow.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: MrFulci on May 01, 2007, 01:48:35 PM
Kit, also, now that I see more of your vid.... I no long have an SNES to test my S-Video cable on (hooked up to the "GameboyCube" right now), though from what I've read and seen, I'm pretty sure one would work in that jack.
Look around, the cable is not pricey.
edited to be more clear..... *It's that first jack you point out on the rear. The jack where the other A/V cables plug into. There is an S-Video version of that cable.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 01, 2007, 01:51:09 PM
I'll look for one, my computer video capture card has S/Video so that would be very nice.
Also, don't worry about Seldane, he knows what he likes and he likes nothing else. Kind of weird but very respectable. ;)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 01, 2007, 02:04:29 PM
Kit, also, now that I see more of your vid.... I no long have an SNES to test my S-Video cable on (hooked up to the "GameboyCube" right now), though from what I've read and seen, I'm pretty sure one would work in that jack.
I just use a universal PS2/GC/Xbox S-Video cable with my old rotten SNESes.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 01, 2007, 02:41:57 PM
Well the one I'm playing now is Final Fanasty VI, which is bascially the same as the SNES but with raspy sound and slightly smoother scaling. Its good. The GBA is bascially a handheld SNES. How the hell can that be bad? Its like the SNES came back from the dead and picked up where it left off. Someone mention the FF 1+2 port, but I actually like the Wonderswan version of FF 1 more since it used the original spell system than the FC one had, and its way harder.
Some GBA games I've very much enjoyed (none of which are ports).
Inital D: Another Stage: This is a racing strategy game. Very unique approach. One chooses racing lines, and braking techniques from a menu. There is a spirit bar and stuff. Most people would prefer the arcade game (or the lame PS2 port of the arcade game) but this one wins for originality. Also, the graphics are fantastic.
Super Robot Wars J: This is is so technically amazing it can't be described. Watch the movies on youtube. The series selection was better in SRW D, and W has better graphics, but J is soooooo damn good for a lowly handheld game. There are actually six SRW games on GBA, but I mainly recomend D,and J. Maybe OG2.
Advance Wars: Much has been said about this one. I don't need to add to it.
Haro no Puyo Puyo: Puyo Puyo with SD Gundam characters. Not as lavish as it should be, but still nice. Color blind people are screwed though (even more than usual with Puyo games).
Three *real* Castlevanias: My favorite is Harmony of Dissonance, but everyone else seems to like that one the least.
Mario Kart: Super Circuit: The only really good sequel to the original (amazing) SNES game. The SNES tracks are even included.
Astro Boy: Ahh! Shit! I love this game to death! I completed the Japanese version twice, and the US version 5 times. I heard the EU version is slighly improved (just as the US version was slightly improved over the JP one). If this is the case, I need to get that one too. Easily my favorite platform game since Yoshi's Island.
Final Firepro Wrestling: If you like Firepro, this is very good. If you are like the other %99.9 of the world that doesn't care, then...you don't care.
There are many more good GBA games. I think if you can't enjoy the GBA you just hate life/games/fun. I mean, shit the GBA has f*cking Ganbare Dunk Heroes! How can it not be wonderful?
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 01, 2007, 02:49:51 PM
Damn straight! This game is often overlooked because it stars the cutesy Astroboy characters. Big mistake, since its one of the best games on the system IMO.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Tatsujin on May 01, 2007, 04:07:14 PM
I thought that the NES didn't use a stock 6502, it used a variant called the Ricoh 2A03 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricoh_2A03), not only the CPU, but the sound chip/contoller as well.
So not only would the games be insanely fast, they'd also have no sound.
I think the 6502 swap would be entirely possible on a C64, though.
That explains a lot of why almost none of the games would run...the pinout is apparently the same but the functions are obviously far different. I had no idea that the chips were so different inside. Never noticed the sound thing though...the TV had a broken speaker. :D
The 6502 swap doesn't work on a C64 either though, the C64 uses a 6510, not a 6502. I tried to replace the 6510 with a standard 6502 just to see what would happen, and the machine wouldn't boot up. The VIC-20 does use a stock 6502 I believe, and could probably be "upgraded" to the 65C02. (There was an upgrade cart you could buy for the C64 that used a 4MHz 65C02 that piggybacked the system but I never got my hands on one.)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 01, 2007, 04:27:21 PM
You mean 3.58 MHz or something like that, don't you? A 21MHz SNES would be awesome.
The SNES is 21MHZ by default, but the clock dividers limit it to 3.xxMHZ, 2.xx for PAL...
your're talking about the external crystal oscillation frequency which doesn't say anything about the CPU-clockspeed. it's usually that the crystal oscillation is a multiple of the CPU clock.
so then the FC would be also clocked @ 21.77MHz > http://nesdev.parodius.com/Ntd_8bit.jpg
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 01, 2007, 06:14:42 PM
As I understand it, the FX2 chip upgrades the SNES to 21'ish mhz.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: nodtveidt on May 01, 2007, 07:09:21 PM
The SNES CPU runs at 3.58MHz. Keep in mind that this was many years before graphics cores that contained their own CPUs were available to the commercial market.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: SignOfZeta on May 02, 2007, 12:34:46 AM
Exactly, minus 2 buttons and like 6 PCM channels. And the fact that 32MHZ is a little faster than 21MHZ...
I think the biggest difference is the fact that cart sizes have shot through the roof. Even a smaller GBA game would have been a huge SNES game. This naturally makes for more impressive stuff.
I haven't noticed the lower number of PCM channels, but the audio on GBA is really bad. Its all raspy and hissy and stuff. This noise really messes up games like FFVI, and Yoshi's Island, which both have really great music on the SNES. The GBA for the most part pulls off these tunes with no problem, other than the noise.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 02, 2007, 02:21:53 AM
I haven't noticed the lower number of PCM channels, but the audio on GBA is really bad. Its all raspy and hissy and stuff. This noise really messes up games like FFVI, and Yoshi's Island, which both have really great music on the SNES. The GBA for the most part pulls off these tunes with no problem, other than the noise.
The noise is because of the low quality of the sound chip, but really listen to Final Fantasy 2 on SNES and listen to the GBA version, you'll notice the GBC hardware filling in for a LOT of voices...
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Digi.k on May 02, 2007, 11:46:33 AM
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 02, 2007, 12:04:18 PM
Looks pretty genuine. Kind of hard to tell on American games as the shrinkwrap is just standard shrinkwrap (except for that hanger on the SNES games, but it ought to be pretty easy to put it on there manually). Nintendo always embedded a string of Nintendo logos in the plastic (not shrink wrap) for their European releases (at least since the SNES era, not sure about the NES games).
Damn straight! This game is often overlooked because it stars the cutesy Astroboy characters. Big mistake, since its one of the best games on the system IMO.
Well, the same can be said for the actual Astro Boy manga. Because it's old doesn't have modern manga elements (dudes with angel wings, maids...dumb shit like that) people think its just some old crusty junk. I love it though. The Astro Boy manga has some of the most interesting hard SF elements I've ever read. Like, P.K. Dick-grade stuff, IMO. Then...
Then Atom goes to 'Nam, and the shit gets real.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 02, 2007, 02:26:34 PM
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: GUTS on May 02, 2007, 07:26:38 PM
US SNES games all had a vertical line on the shrinkwrap on the back that's basically next to impossible to replicate so it's pretty easy to tell real factory sealed ones.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 03, 2007, 01:57:02 AM
Aah, good to know. Guess I've only seen fake shrinkwrapped SNES games then, hehe. Not exactly uncommon. The bastards. Well, I'd never buy a shrinkwrapped game anyway...
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: GUTS on May 03, 2007, 04:09:32 PM
Yeah it's amazing how many people get scammed like that. I saw one guy on ebay was selling "NEW sealed" cartridges only, it was hilarious. Everything he had was listed "NEW SEALED!" but they were just shrinkwrapped cartridges and sometimes the manuals, like he'd bought a shrink wrapper at a garage sale and then went crazy.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 03, 2007, 04:14:11 PM
Remember that seller on these boards who was trying to sell a sealed copy of Snatcher for Sega CD but it had a huge ass hole on the front? He was trying to make a big deal how it was sealed and stuff, it was hilarious.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Bonknuts on May 03, 2007, 08:01:38 PM
US SNES games all had a vertical line on the shrinkwrap on the back that's basically next to impossible to replicate so it's pretty easy to tell real factory sealed ones.
]
Nah, I used to easily reshrink wrap SNES games with the line in the back. I didn't have a machine - just a soldering iron, metal ruler, and a heat gun.
Anyway, someone mentioned the SNES running at 3.58mhz. That's in fast ROM mode - early(and most) SNES roms used slower ROMs that set the CPU to 2.79mhz and some were combo fast/slow rom carts. SNES's PPU is pretty amazing though while it's CPU is slow and lacking any additional custom CPU opcodes. One thing the SNES did have was a fairly fast multiply/divide IC that the CPU accessed via ports - though still not as fast as a lookup table.
The SNES's sPPU had a mode to do 8bit tiles(256colors) which is why the 60fps mode 7 effects looked nice, while the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation). What a waste of cost.
But.. NES for the win. While the SNES graphics were beautiful, a lot of the games were just came off as generic feeling. NES had much more fun and memorable games.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 03, 2007, 10:25:24 PM
Quote from: Bonknuts
the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).
Explain Soul Star. Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there. Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling. Very few games did the scaling well, though. Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 04, 2007, 01:31:39 AM
the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).
Explain Soul Star. Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there. Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling. Very few games did the scaling well, though. Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.
I haven't played Soul Star in a decade, but from what I remember it could've used 16 color pieces, even though it still looked nice and colorful.
Maybe those Sega-CD games did some of their scaling the ole fashioned way since the cpu's so friggin' fast.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: GUTS on May 04, 2007, 08:43:53 AM
Sega CD games had amazing scaling that completely and utterly blew the SNES's scaling out of the water, compare ANY snes game's scaling to Soul Star, Battle Corps, or Batman Returns. The Sega CD was a beast.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 04, 2007, 09:42:42 AM
In reality though, all of those scaling and rotation effects were cheesy. GUTS' fanboyism really shows by how he can make fun of mode 7 to no stop yet praise Sega CD's effects. Honestly, I can't really make a difference in the quality between them. It's not that I don't like the effects, because I like cheese :mrgreen: .
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 04, 2007, 11:52:17 AM
Keranu, what would you have in place of scaling effects? Jumping sprites? Things that never grow or shrink even of the game calls for it? That's like saying the color green is cheesy.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 04, 2007, 12:37:30 PM
How exactly is mode 7 cheesy? I think it adds a lot to the game. Secret of Mana just wouldn't be the same without that nice map and the Flammie flight, for example. Other games like Super Mario Kart are also awesome.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: nodtveidt on May 04, 2007, 01:33:43 PM
Scaling/rotation are pretty common features in 2D graphics libraries for PC games. Hard to find one that doesn't have such capabilities. As with anything, it's not the effect itself but how it's used. Overuse of anything cheapens the whole effect.
Joe, the SNES could scale both backgrounds and sprites. Even SMW shows off sprite scaling.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 04, 2007, 02:31:13 PM
Scaling and rotation are not cheesy, I prefer them to some 3D effects we have today.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 04, 2007, 04:38:18 PM
SNES could not scale sprites. If it could, don't you think F-Zero and Pilotwings would scale them? If in Super Mario World you are referring to Bowser, he is a background.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 04, 2007, 04:44:15 PM
SNES could not scale sprites. If it could, don't you think F-Zero and Pilotwings would scale them? If in Super Mario World you are referring to Bowser, he is a background.
That may have been, but if you google "SNES sprite scaling", you get a bunch of pages that say it DOES scale sprites...also I'm pretty sure the Contra 3 missles were sprites.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 04, 2007, 05:38:40 PM
If you guys wanna see some real sprite scaling, just watch the opening cinema of Gate of Thunder(or finish a match of Bomberman '93). :wink:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 04, 2007, 06:20:29 PM
Keranu, what would you have in place of scaling effects? Jumping sprites? Things that never grow or shrink even of the game calls for it? That's like saying the color green is cheesy.
You're assuming that I hate the effect, which I stated I don't. I do, like others, find the effect to be very cheesy and I'm not quite sure if I can explain why from a technical side. It just tends to look goofy and pixellated and I think that the fact that systems like SNES and Sega CD advertised the effect sort of made developers include it in their games as a gimmick. Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Bonknuts on May 04, 2007, 07:03:55 PM
the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).
Explain Soul Star. Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there. Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling. Very few games did the scaling well, though. Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.
It's simple really - the scaling IC for the SegaCD creates a bitmap to upload to the VDP as one of the display layers. The VDP can only upload up to ~7.38k per frame (during vblank via DMA). A fullscreen scaling/rotation/whatever frame at 320x224 takes 35.8k of unique tile data. That would require 5 (4.8 ) frames to upload all that planar bitmap data (not to mention wasting VRAM on double buffering). That's about 12fps for fullscreen scaling/rotation/whatever. A smaller window(bitmap) takes up less memory, less frame updates, and therefore faster FPS.
Regarding the 16 color limit, it's difficult to explain but each tile only holds 16 colors (out of 4 palettes), there is no way to have one tile color overlap (think scaling larger) into another tile data that contains a color that's not it that specific palette - within a single layer (BG, sprite, or as a fixed window).
The SegaCD has no way to interface directly with the VDP and that's why it has these limitations.
As for the SNES, I have the 800+ page develo manual and there's no mention of sprite scaling/rotation. Just a single BG layer (with 256 color tiles and up to 60fps via HDMA). And from what I remember the SNES addon chips (SFX, C4, etc) don't interface with the sPPU video processor either like the SegaCD so any sprite scaling is done via the same method, except the SNES's DMA is a little slower running around 5-6k. Byuu or one of the other SNES emu authors would know more on this that I, though.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: GUTS on May 04, 2007, 07:48:30 PM
Keranu the difference in SNES/Sega CD games with scaling/rotation is that the Sega CD games actually put the effects to good use, unlike most of the SNES games that just did it just because the system could. For every F-Zero there's 10 Mohawk & Headphone Jacks that use mode 7 for awful, awful things (like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh). Sega CD didn't have many games that used the effects, but the ones that did all put it to great use.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 05, 2007, 02:10:18 AM
Keranu the difference in SNES/Sega CD games with scaling/rotation is that the Sega CD games actually put the effects to good use, unlike most of the SNES games that just did it just because the system could. For every F-Zero there's 10 Mohawk & Headphone Jacks that use mode 7 for awful, awful things (like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh). Sega CD didn't have many games that used the effects, but the ones that did all put it to great use.
Yeah, but thats because there are also a hundred times as many SNES games as Sega-CD games. If you break it down, there are probably more SNES games that put scaling to good use than Sega-CD games.
But does it really matter how abused it is if its considered good when used right?
I'm just surprised at how many times hardware scaling was used for simple effects that could've been done through animation and looked way better(like the giant Bonk 3 sprite).
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 05, 2007, 10:06:29 AM
The SNES is abused - there are too many games on the system. They're all using the same thing - the SNES CPU. Pathetic. :wink:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 05, 2007, 11:28:00 AM
(like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).
I LIKE THAT RACE.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 05, 2007, 11:47:28 AM
I like it too. If it hadn't used mode seven, I wouldn't have liked it. Mode seven is what makes the SNES the only old video game system that actually features somewhat playable racing games.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 05, 2007, 12:18:01 PM
Other notable Mode 7 games:
Mechwarrior (http://rom-world.com/file.php?id=40689): Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....
Space Football One-On-One (http://rom-world.com/file.php?id=33929): BALLBLAZERS CLONE!!!
Lock-On (http://www.rom-world.com/file.php?id=33231): Incredibly fun jet dogfighter sim. Must be played to be believed.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 05, 2007, 03:10:02 PM
Mechwarrior (http://rom-world.com/file.php?id=40689): Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....
Space Football One-On-One (http://rom-world.com/file.php?id=33929): BALLBLAZERS CLONE!!!
Lock-On (http://www.rom-world.com/file.php?id=33231): Incredibly fun jet dogfighter sim. Must be played to be believed.
They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 05, 2007, 03:11:35 PM
They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.
1. It's great. 2. It's one of my favorites. 3. It's not made by the same company (Argonaut, not FASA) 4. IT'S SUPER FX, NOT MODE 7, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T MENTION IT, IDIOTHEAD POOPFORBRAINS. :p
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 05, 2007, 03:19:47 PM
They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.
1. It's great. 2. It's one of my favorites. 3. It's not made by the same company (Argonaut, not FASA) 4. IT'S SUPER FX, NOT MODE 7, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T MENTION IT, IDIOTHEAD POOPFORBRAINS. :p
Sorry, I thought you said:
Quote
Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 05, 2007, 03:33:09 PM
Vortex is great. I love it to death. IT IS NO MECHWARRIOR 2. Vortex is arcade. Mechwarrior 2 is REAL.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 05, 2007, 05:05:52 PM
Quote from: Keranu
Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.
You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling". Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky. Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness. Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller. Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you. No blockiness. Still cheesy?
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 05, 2007, 05:12:31 PM
Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.
You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling". Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky. Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness. Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller. Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you. No blockiness. Still cheesy?
But that'd be illogical for a platform game like Bonk, since you have to keep all the frames of that huge sprite in memory...
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 06, 2007, 12:36:06 AM
It has to be in memory anyway.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 06, 2007, 02:10:27 AM
Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 06, 2007, 11:25:18 AM
Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.
You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling". Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky. Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness. Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller. Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you. No blockiness. Still cheesy?
No, because that's a scaling effect done right. Most cases with SNES games, anything that rotates partially or gets larger at all uses Mode 7 on the 'sprites' as-is instead of sparing memory for a few frames of animation.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 06, 2007, 12:00:14 PM
Let's get back on topic about how the only thing that would suffer in a SNES MechWarrior 2 port would be the audio.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 06, 2007, 12:26:23 PM
Quote from: Seldane
Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.
As opposed to looking like blocky **** when grown? You like the pixely-blocky SNES graphics, don't you? I bet that you squirt a load in your pants when Super Mario World turns into a mess of pixels FOR NO REASON at the beginning of the stage. The closer graphics come to the Atari 2600, the more you like them. I should point at you, laugh and make fun of your mom for this. I'm going to tell the cool kids about you and they'll surely beat you up. :wink:
Anyway, all nearest-neighbor scaling pretty much sucks compared to what can be done these days.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 06, 2007, 12:31:27 PM
Actually, I do like pixelly graphics, when they're used like they are in Tempest 2000.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 06, 2007, 01:55:47 PM
Then why doesn't your avatar look like this SNES-ized version I did for you?
Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.
You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling". Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky. Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness. Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller. Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you. No blockiness. Still cheesy?
But that'd be illogical for a platform game like Bonk, since you have to keep all the frames of that huge sprite in memory...
Since they didn't use shrink scaling, they instead kept all the huge, medium and tiny sprite sizes in memory.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 06, 2007, 04:22:26 PM
Quote
My avatar IS from the SNES, it's been scaled down and has a background from Sukusuku Infuku on the PS2.
OK. I don't know what "Sukusukususku Inf*ckyou" is, but it sounds gay. If it were cool it would definitely have an English title. FACT.
Quote
Maybe you don't understand what I mean by Tempest 2000 pixels:
Yeah, nobody was even mentioning anything even remotely like that when talking about pixely graphics. I don't consider those pixely at all. I am talking about pixely grow scaling and the nasty mosaic feature the SNES likes to do that looks like ass.
Quote
And if you can't be arsed to run a Jaguar emulator, try this: http://typhoon.kuto.de/download.html
"arsed"? Oh my, what has the movie "Titanic" wrought with the inclusion of that word? If that movie never existed, people all over the net would be saying "ass" instead.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: nodtveidt on May 06, 2007, 04:29:07 PM
"Grow scaling" and "shrink scaling"...lol. You know, they have proper names, it's "upscaling" and "downscaling". When a function can perform both, it's called "free scaling". Upscaling produces duplicate pixels if unfiltered, and downscaling eliminates certain pixels. Downscaling can make a real mess of an image if there's no priority programmed into the scaler.
As for the SNES scaling bit, it looks like I was wrong. If Bonknuts says there's no sprite scaling/rotation (known as "rotozooming"), then there isn't, end of story. But then again, I never got into mode 7 programming, so I never really cared.
The SNES's Mosaic effect was rarely put to good use. The only game I can think of that did anything good with it is Super Turrican.
One thing's for sure...fanboyism never dies.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 06, 2007, 04:33:26 PM
OK. I don't know what "Sukusukususku Inf*ckyou" is, but it sounds gay. If it were cool it would definitely have an English title. FACT.
See this thread for details.
Quote
"arsed"? Oh my, what has the movie "Titanic" wrought with the inclusion of that word? If that movie never existed, people all over the net would be saying "ass" instead.
In all honesty, I didn't even realize the movie used that word! :lol: I actually picked it up from the Rareware Scribes page...I have one letter they actually answer, if you want to find it, it's up to you to use the information you know about me to find it.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 07, 2007, 12:14:52 AM
Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.
As opposed to looking like blocky **** when grown?]
No no, I never said that. I just .... never mentioned it whatsoever. Both upscaling and downscaling looks like **** on **** hardware. Period. If I was in charge back then (which, incidentally, I was- I just never did what I was supposed to do) I would ban scaling altogether.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 07, 2007, 02:24:31 AM
Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.
As opposed to looking like blocky **** when grown?]
No no, I never said that. I just .... never mentioned it whatsoever. Both upscaling and downscaling looks like **** on **** hardware. Period. If I was in charge back then (which, incidentally, I was- I just never did what I was supposed to do) I would ban scaling altogether.
Just because Nintendo has retards in their R&D department doesn't mean you should hate on scaling. SEGA and SNK have scaling down to a science.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 07, 2007, 02:26:36 AM
Konami ruined scaling/rotation for me with their horrible Castlevania games for GBA.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 07, 2007, 02:30:08 AM
Well to be fair, the only thing good about ANY Castlevania was the music.
Yeah, fanboys. I just went there. Commence the flames, but I'm sticking by my guns.
I'm more of a Parodious/Gradius fanboy.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 07, 2007, 02:35:51 AM
Yeah I guess that's pretty true. Except of course about the music bit. At least the GBA/DS games (Aria of whatever, GBA in particular) feature some of the worst noise I have heard in my life.
The PCE/PS1 games had nice music though.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 07, 2007, 02:49:10 AM
Yeah I guess that's pretty true. Except of course about the music bit. At least the GBA/DS games (Aria of whatever, GBA in particular) feature some of the worst noise I have heard in my life.
The PCE/PS1 games had nice music though.
Yeah, the GBA chips doesn't really do the music justice, but I like the new DS game's music. It's classic Yuzo Koshiro.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 07, 2007, 07:56:29 AM
Ummm... why? Parodius I can understand. But Gradius? It's so.... bland!
Because I embrace all SHMUPS with open arms. Except Cho-Anki. Keep that shit away from me.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Necromancer on May 08, 2007, 06:24:06 AM
Kitsune - You know you want to embrace the oiled, half-naked, sexy men. You can't fool me. :)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 08, 2007, 12:14:15 PM
Cho Aniki blowz Gradius out of the water.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 08, 2007, 04:56:06 PM
Gradius 5 does indeed kick ass. The only good thing about any of the other Gradius games was some (not all) of the music. This is absolute 100% fact. It is written in the Bible and the Koran.
Kitsu is afraid that Cho Aniki may release suppressed feelings hidden deep inside of him. :)
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 08, 2007, 05:36:17 PM
Because I embrace all SHMUPS with open arms. Except Cho-Anki. Keep that shit away from me.
What if it was beastman on beastman flirting?
I plead the Fifth!
j/k :wink:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Bonknuts on May 09, 2007, 03:28:17 PM
Man.. how can you not like Cho Aniki? I can see, *maybe*, if you don't like Ai Cho Aniki - but Cho Aniki? Come on! Get over that homophobia and enjoy a great game :pray:
The graphics in Ai Cho Aniki are great, but that game is HARD :shock:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Kitsunexus on May 09, 2007, 03:32:31 PM
Umm, no. You see, I have no problem with gays, I talk with them and everything. But I don't slam my straightness in your face, don't slam your gayness in mine right? Cho Aniki does just that. So I hate it.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 09, 2007, 03:55:48 PM
Ai Cho Aniki is just wacky Japanese humor, I doubt the creators are homosexuals that are trying to slam their gay pride in your face, Kitsune. (or maybe they are?) Either way, don't take it seriously.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 09, 2007, 04:11:59 PM
Umm, no. You see, I have no problem with gays, I talk with them and everything. But I don't slam my straightness in your face, don't slam your gayness in mine right? Cho Aniki does just that. So I hate it.
Don't most mainstream games shove rampant heterosexuality in your face with buff he-men and filthy dirt sluts goin' at it left and right?
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 09, 2007, 04:57:33 PM
Where was the favorite game babes thread? I need to slam my heterosexuality into your face and post some more pictures!
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Keranu on May 09, 2007, 05:37:59 PM
I find Final Fantasy to slam more homosexuality in all your faces than Cho Aniki.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 10, 2007, 01:25:21 AM
I find Final Fantasy to slam more homosexuality in all your faces than Cho Aniki.
There's a difference between femmesexuality and homoosexuality and femtardsexuality.
Amano androngenous FF characters's being more femme'y and that other guy's inbred uniquely-disabled fashionly challenged manboy parade being over the top femtardastic.
All the main characters in FFXII look like Matt Damon dressed in baby clothes with alternate hairstyles. And it has the best looking characters since FFVII.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: FM-77 on May 10, 2007, 02:45:21 AM
I disagree. The characters in FF7 looked like trolls/monsters. Look at Tifa! Disgusting!
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 11, 2007, 12:40:00 PM
Well Tifa is really the only hot HUMAN videogame girl I like...
Probably because she looks so much like an animal.
Haaaahahaha :mrgreen: !
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 15, 2007, 04:57:24 PM
Quote from: Bonknuts
the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).
The huge purple scaling ship in stage 1 (that you fly into) of Soul Star has at least 24 colors on it, and that is not counting the other objects onscreen that are also scaling that have different colors that are not on the giant ship. I don't mean to sound smug, but that kind of throws your 16-color limit for ALL the scaling and rotation out the window.
I cropped everything that wasn't this ship out of the screen, including the player ship (black box in the image), even though the player ship happens to scale. That leaves us with 23 colors for the purple ship alone, and the entire ship isn't even on the screen.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: GUTS on May 16, 2007, 06:53:33 AM
^^ Also the parts where you can walk around have the floor scaling and rotating, and that was full screen. Same with Battlecorps. Both had a good framerate.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Black Tiger on May 16, 2007, 12:43:38 PM
What about the aircraft carrier at the beginning of AfterBurner II PCE? It was a whole bg layer and (depending on how you want to count it) it's got 16 - 25+ colors. :P
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 16, 2007, 01:42:52 PM
I'm sure it does. It also has a frame rate of about 5fps.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: esteban on May 16, 2007, 06:10:44 PM
I'm sure it does. It also has a frame rate of about 5fps.
It also doesn't have hardware scaling like the big guys.
And don't the bonus stages in Sonic CD run at 6 fps? :wink:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: nat on May 17, 2007, 04:37:16 AM
NEC Avenue was smart to leave the "SEGA" logo on that aircraft carrier.
That way, as PCE/Turbo players played the game and experienced the lousy framerate first-hand, the craptacular experience would be in their minds forever associated with..... You guessed it: SEGA. :lol: :dance: :wink:
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 17, 2007, 11:56:43 AM
Quote from: Black_Tiger
And don't the bonus stages in Sonic CD run at 6 fps? :wink:
A solid 15fps. Sonic CD is a piece-o-shit game all around.
Zero Tolerance on the Genesis doesn't use hardware scaling and it puts After Burner on the PCE to shame, even though it only uses about a quarter of the screen. That's because Sega is full of power and is great.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Bonknuts on May 17, 2007, 01:59:25 PM
the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).
The huge purple scaling ship in stage 1 (that you fly into) of Soul Star has at least 24 colors on it, and that is not counting the other objects onscreen that are also scaling that have different colors that are not on the giant ship. I don't mean to sound smug, but that kind of throws your 16-color limit for ALL the scaling and rotation out the window.
I cropped everything that wasn't this ship out of the screen, including the player ship (black box in the image), even though the player ship happens to scale. That leaves us with 23 colors for the purple ship alone, and the entire ship isn't even on the screen.
Uhh yeah, you can combine both BG layers for up to 31 colors( 1 is repeared)- but it's still limited to 16 colors per layer like I said. There are tricks you can do but the point is still the same - 16(15) colors per layer be it BG layer 1, BG layer 2, or sprite layer if sections(tiles) are going to cross over into other areas.
Title: Re: Nintendo's best console
Post by: Joe Redifer on May 17, 2007, 02:45:39 PM
You didn't say per layer, you said
Quote
for *all* the scaling/rotation
That ship is a single BG layer. No sprites. No BG2.