Author Topic: Nintendo's best console  (Read 7353 times)

Keranu

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #120 on: May 04, 2007, 06:20:29 PM »
Keranu, what would you have in place of scaling effects?  Jumping sprites?  Things that never grow or shrink even of the game calls for it?  That's like saying the color green is cheesy.
You're assuming that I hate the effect, which I stated I don't. I do, like others, find the effect to be very cheesy and I'm not quite sure if I can explain why from a technical side. It just tends to look goofy and pixellated and I think that the fact that systems like SNES and Sega CD advertised the effect sort of made developers include it in their games as a gimmick. Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

Bonknuts

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2007, 07:03:55 PM »
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the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).


Explain Soul Star.  Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there.  Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling.  Very few games did the scaling well, though.  Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.

It's simple really - the scaling IC for the SegaCD creates a bitmap to upload to the VDP as one of the display layers. The VDP can only upload up to ~7.38k per frame (during vblank via DMA). A fullscreen scaling/rotation/whatever frame at 320x224 takes 35.8k of unique tile data. That would require 5 (4.8 ) frames to upload all that planar bitmap data (not to mention wasting VRAM on double buffering). That's about 12fps for fullscreen scaling/rotation/whatever. A smaller window(bitmap) takes up less memory, less frame updates, and therefore faster FPS.

 Regarding the 16 color limit, it's difficult to explain but each tile only holds 16 colors (out of 4 palettes), there is no way to have one tile color overlap (think scaling larger) into another tile data that contains a color that's not it that specific palette - within a single layer (BG, sprite, or as a fixed window).

 The SegaCD has no way to interface directly with the VDP and that's why it has these limitations.

 As for the SNES, I have the 800+ page develo manual and there's no mention of sprite scaling/rotation. Just a single BG layer (with 256 color tiles and up to 60fps via HDMA). And from what I remember the SNES addon chips (SFX, C4, etc) don't interface with the sPPU video processor either like the SegaCD so any sprite scaling is done via the same method, except the SNES's DMA is a little slower running around 5-6k. Byuu or one of the other SNES emu authors would know more on this that I, though.




GUTS

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2007, 07:48:30 PM »
Keranu the difference in SNES/Sega CD games with scaling/rotation is that the Sega CD games actually put the effects to good use, unlike most of the SNES games that just did it just because the system could.  For every F-Zero there's 10 Mohawk & Headphone Jacks that use mode 7 for awful, awful things (like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).  Sega CD didn't have many games that used the effects, but the ones that did all put it to great use.

Kitsunexus

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #123 on: May 05, 2007, 02:10:18 AM »
As for the SNES, I have the 800+ page develo manual

Even though I wouldn't understand most of it, this is something I'd REALLY like to read...

Turbo D

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #124 on: May 05, 2007, 02:32:36 AM »
Nintendo never made any good consoles, just great software  :D

Black Tiger

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #125 on: May 05, 2007, 09:06:00 AM »
Keranu the difference in SNES/Sega CD games with scaling/rotation is that the Sega CD games actually put the effects to good use, unlike most of the SNES games that just did it just because the system could.  For every F-Zero there's 10 Mohawk & Headphone Jacks that use mode 7 for awful, awful things (like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).  Sega CD didn't have many games that used the effects, but the ones that did all put it to great use.

Yeah, but thats because there are also a hundred times as many SNES games as Sega-CD games. If you break it down, there are probably more SNES games that put scaling to good use than Sega-CD games.

But does it really matter how abused it is if its considered good when used right?

I'm just surprised at how many times hardware scaling was used for simple effects that could've been done through animation and looked way better(like the giant Bonk 3 sprite).
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FM-77

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2007, 10:06:29 AM »
The SNES is abused - there are too many games on the system. They're all using the same thing - the SNES CPU. Pathetic. :wink:

Kitsunexus

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2007, 11:28:00 AM »
(like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).

I LIKE THAT RACE.

FM-77

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2007, 11:47:28 AM »
I like it too. If it hadn't used mode seven, I wouldn't have liked it. Mode seven is what makes the SNES the only old video game system that actually features somewhat playable racing games.

Kitsunexus

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2007, 12:18:01 PM »
Other notable Mode 7 games:

Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....


Space Football One-On-One: BALLBLAZERS CLONE!!!


Lock-On: Incredibly fun jet dogfighter sim. Must be played to be believed.

Black Tiger

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2007, 03:10:02 PM »
Other notable Mode 7 games:

Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....


Space Football One-On-One: BALLBLAZERS CLONE!!!


Lock-On: Incredibly fun jet dogfighter sim. Must be played to be believed.


They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.
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Kitsunexus

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2007, 03:11:35 PM »

They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.

1. It's great.
2. It's one of my favorites.
3. It's not made by the same company (Argonaut, not FASA)
4. IT'S SUPER FX, NOT MODE 7, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T MENTION IT, IDIOTHEAD POOPFORBRAINS. :p

Black Tiger

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2007, 03:19:47 PM »

They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.

1. It's great.
2. It's one of my favorites.
3. It's not made by the same company (Argonaut, not FASA)
4. IT'S SUPER FX, NOT MODE 7, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T MENTION IT, IDIOTHEAD POOPFORBRAINS. :p

Sorry, I thought you said:

Quote
Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....
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Kitsunexus

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2007, 03:33:09 PM »
Sorry, I thought you said...


Vortex is great. I love it to death. IT IS NO MECHWARRIOR 2. Vortex is arcade. Mechwarrior 2 is REAL.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 03:37:57 PM by Kitsunexus »

Joe Redifer

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Re: Nintendo's best console
« Reply #134 on: May 05, 2007, 05:05:52 PM »
Quote from: Keranu

Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.


You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling".  Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky.  Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness.  Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller.  Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you.  No blockiness.  Still cheesy?