Author Topic: My precious came in...  (Read 1363 times)

ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2013, 02:26:22 PM »
Laserdisc systems are fun.  Extremely High Quality Composite out which is Native for LD.   

What in the hell are you even talking about. Composite video quality, hell even svideo varied from player model to player model. Laserdisc is analog signal based technology, and the quality of the video is largely factored by what player you use. Use a shitty player or lower end player and you will get a lot of picture noise, bleeding colors, linedrops, etc on laserdisc video playback. God, f*cking noobs, I swear....


I've had a couple of LD players over the years and am quite familiar with them.  My Sony unit shit the bed and was quite poor before it literally fell apart.  Pioneer units were quite better and had superior Video out.  Based on the LD forums (yes I am EvilEvoIX there as well if you want to rant over there) it is know that most Pioneer units are superior and as far as the Laseractive unit which this thread was about and I was referring to, has superior AV out.  Before you flew off the handle on one of your rants, I'd like to point out that I was well aware of the different qualities but this thread is about the CLD-A100so it does indeed have superior AV out.

Why so angry?




Not familiar enough to prevent you from spouting off a bunch of misinformation bullshit.

The Laseracitive does not have superior AV out for laserdisc playback. It has a video signal to noise ratio of about 48 dB which is terrible for home theater laserdisc playback if you take the stuff even remotely serious. The only way to clean it up is to have a excellent tv with a really nice comb filter. Dropping the kind of cash people had to drop at retail for the thing, there is no excuse for that. It should have had better signal quality and supported svideo correctly. The svideo mod for it gives shit results.

If the thing was built tough like a lot of the industrial players that had lower quality video, that would at least make up some for the short comings. But its not, and the thing is supposed to be more then just used as a game system. Its comprised of some real budget player thin plastic parts and they break often which did not justify the launch price at all. About the only players I have seen breaking down more then a Laseractive are the carousel and combi players. Regardless of the over all weak build, the key thing you are discussing is video quality. You are completely wrong on that, 100 percent. The only thing the Laseractive has going for it is its gaming ability. As a LD player its easily one of the worst early 90s players and if you want it to last I honestly do not suggest using it as your sole LD player. If someone has one and plans to collect laserdisc I would recommend buying a refurbished mid to high end Pioneer or Panasonic for actual movie playback. Leave the Laseractive to doing what it did best, playing games, not playing Ld's.

This is coming from the guy who used to own ten players and had a massive library of rare LD's. Dig deep enough in prior post I have done around here and maybe you will spot stuff I used to have when I cared for the format.

SuperDeadite

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 04:48:00 PM »
For normal games, you should RGB mod the LaserActive anyway.  It's quite simple to do and if you are lazy like me you can just feed the wires out the big air holes on the back and never have to cut any holes.  You will need to use the composite for the LD-Games of course.   To be fair to the LaserActive though, it's composite output is better then a standard model 1 MegaDrive, not that it means much anymore as anyone buying stuff like an LA should already have an RGB setup of some kind.
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PunkicCyborg

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2013, 04:55:22 PM »
Your Laseractive doesn't exist until you show us pics of it in action :P
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SignOfZeta

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2013, 06:15:16 PM »
Laserdisc systems are fun.  Extremely High Quality Composite out which is Native for LD.    

What in the hell are you even talking about. Composite video quality, hell even svideo varied from player model to player model. Laserdisc is analog signal based technology, and the quality of the video is largely factored by what player you use. Use a shitty player or lower end player and you will get a lot of picture noise, bleeding colors, linedrops, etc on laserdisc video playback. God, f*cking noobs, I swear....


I've had a couple of LD players over the years and am quite familiar with them.  My Sony unit shit the bed and was quite poor before it literally fell apart.  Pioneer units were quite better and had superior Video out.  Based on the LD forums (yes I am EvilEvoIX there as well if you want to rant over there) it is know that most Pioneer units are superior and as far as the Laseractive unit which this thread was about and I was referring to, has superior AV out.  Before you flew off the handle on one of your rants, I'd like to point out that I was well aware of the different qualities but this thread is about the CLD-A100so it does indeed have superior AV out.

Why so angry?





WTF is "superior AV out"? Superior to what, a Sony? That's about it. Its pretty middle of the road for a Pioneer.

Every post you make sounds like you either just read it off a Wiki 30 seconds ago or you made it up completely. That's why people hate you. People hate know-it-alls, but they hate know-it-alls that know nothing much more.

SuperDeadite

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2013, 09:21:21 PM »
Laserdisc systems are fun.  Extremely High Quality Composite out which is Native for LD.  I suggest you find a quality CRT to fully enjoy it.  Sonic looks great too out AV, lot less blurring a bleeding. 

Considering he mentions SONIC.  I don't think he's referring to actual LD playback through composite video.  He means normal games only.  And the Mega/Gene PAC does have better composite out quality then an original Megadrive Model 1.  And this is does mention Sonic, I'm guessing he's referring to Joe's LA GameSack episode which clearly shows this.  But in the end, who the f*ck is still playing MD games in composite in the year 2013?
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ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2013, 10:05:54 PM »
Laserdisc systems are fun.  Extremely High Quality Composite out which is Native for LD.  I suggest you find a quality CRT to fully enjoy it.  Sonic looks great too out AV, lot less blurring a bleeding.  

Considering he mentions SONIC.  I don't think he's referring to actual LD playback through composite video.  He means normal games only.  And the Mega/Gene PAC does have better composite out quality then an original Megadrive Model 1.  And this is does mention Sonic, I'm guessing he's referring to Joe's LA GameSack episode which clearly shows this.  But in the end, who the f*ck is still playing MD games in composite in the year 2013?

Given his follow up post referring to his vast :roll: LD experience, I don't think that's what he meant completely. He had a chance to clarify it if that was the case, but instead wanted to enlighten us on how Pioneer units were better and had "superior Video out", because he had a Sony and it crapped out on him once (Given how he treats stuff, is anyone surprised?). And yeah, I kinda figured that most of his Laseractive knowledge came from a youtube video. I have my doubts that he even meddled in Laserdisc before on any serious level, if any at all. Just another me too guy who lies his way into a discussion with sick desperation.

SignOfZeta

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2013, 11:20:27 PM »
To be fair, the good parts of Sony LD players were better looking designs and smaller form factors. Reliability and video quality were never the strong points. It seems like every Sony player I see for sale is broken now.

Ji-L87

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2013, 02:29:06 AM »
The Laseracitive does not have superior AV out for laserdisc playback. It has a video signal to noise ratio of about 48 dB which is terrible for home theater laserdisc playback if you take the stuff even remotely serious.

Question about this, if you don't mind me borrowing the thread for a bit :mrgreen:

Most of the players I've seen, where I've been able to actually dig up a picture to noise ratio number*, have been around 48. What is the lowest number one should be looking for to get a decent visual experience, and which players achieves this?

* Rarely seems to be mentioned in spec sheets/manuals/reviews etc

Edit: Post 666 ohgod etc
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TheClash603

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 04:53:04 AM »
Laserdisc systems are fun.  Extremely High Quality Composite out which is Native for LD.  I suggest you find a quality CRT to fully enjoy it.  Sonic looks great too out AV, lot less blurring a bleeding. 

Considering he mentions SONIC.  I don't think he's referring to actual LD playback through composite video.  He means normal games only.  And the Mega/Gene PAC does have better composite out quality then an original Megadrive Model 1.  And this is does mention Sonic, I'm guessing he's referring to Joe's LA GameSack episode which clearly shows this.  But in the end, who the f*ck is still playing MD games in composite in the year 2013?

I play to replicate my youth experience.  When possible, RF is the ONLY way to go!

SignOfZeta

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2013, 09:02:15 AM »
The Laseracitive does not have superior AV out for laserdisc playback. It has a video signal to noise ratio of about 48 dB which is terrible for home theater laserdisc playback if you take the stuff even remotely serious.

Question about this, if you don't mind me borrowing the thread for a bit :mrgreen:

Most of the players I've seen, where I've been able to actually dig up a picture to noise ratio number*, have been around 48. What is the lowest number one should be looking for to get a decent visual experience, and which players achieves this?

* Rarely seems to be mentioned in spec sheets/manuals/reviews etc

Edit: Post 666 ohgod etc

You want a higher number, not a lower one. I think 52 is about as good as it gets (CLD-99) and the only players that are going to drop below 48 are so old and primitive and crappy that only hardcore collectors want them. SNR doesn't vary a lot because its more of a limitation with LD than with how well the player is made.

In the end though, its not the SNR that makes the better players better. Its the digital noise resistance, the comb filter (especially in the case of the CLD-99, R7G, X-0), and other ways the signal is cooked before it leaves the player. LD is a format with all sorts of issues latent to the 1970s tech it was built on. The "good" players do a better job of extracting the signal from the disc, but they also do a lot more to process it afterwards. A perfect example of this is when Pioneer moved from the CLD-97 to the CLD-99. The 97 had a much better chassis, but the 99 had a lot more high tech junk and the image quality is pretty much the same, possibly better on the 99 (if you are using the s-video out).

ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2013, 09:30:04 AM »
The Laseracitive does not have superior AV out for laserdisc playback. It has a video signal to noise ratio of about 48 dB which is terrible for home theater laserdisc playback if you take the stuff even remotely serious.


Question about this, if you don't mind me borrowing the thread for a bit :mrgreen:

Most of the players I've seen, where I've been able to actually dig up a picture to noise ratio number*, have been around 48. What is the lowest number one should be looking for to get a decent visual experience, and which players achieves this?

* Rarely seems to be mentioned in spec sheets/manuals/reviews etc

Edit: Post 666 ohgod etc


48db and below were basically commonplace for lower end players to composite able only industrial player decks during the late 80s on up. There are actually players with worse signal to noise ratio then that even. For optimal home theater use I really would not use a player with anything below 49db signal-to-noise ratio for the picture. If you just have to settle for 48db then I would only want a player with really solid construction like an industrial deck. Usually the older higher end composite only players from like 1989 start at 49db at least and go up. If you are willing to throw down some real money you can get players that are capable of 51db signal-to-noise ratio. 48db signal-to-noise ratio itself was only considered high end back in like 1986 back when the LD-S1 was released, but a lot started to change a few years later because as Tv's were getting better they were working to improve video playback more on VHS and LD players to keep up.

Off the top of my head, if dual side playback is a must but you wanted to save cash, a good lower budget dual side player the CLD-2080 was workable as its picture quality was good for composite only. If your tv has a capable comb filter it can do pretty well with that player. There are other cheap dual side players just as capable too so you will just have to look around, but you can get one for under $150 shipped usually. If dual side playback is not a needed feature for you the single side players by Panasonic run cheap as hell and support s-video out and typically have a 49db to 50db signal-to-noise ratio.

The Panasonic LX 120 is a good single side player in fact that you can usually get off ebay for $70 and cheaper shipped. The picture had some grain in the image but the player handled line dropouts and other issues rather well (the slight grain actually gave some lds a more natural film look). In fact it was one of the few players I owned that could handle Ministry's In Case You Didn't Feel Like Showing Up perfectly fine. Both Quoth09 and myself owned that disc and either disc would exhibit issues on other players, line dropouts and other crap, even on higher end players.

If you plan to spend real money on the stuff then really what you'd need to do is shop around and try to dig up old reviews for the players that are peaking your interest. Sometimes the laserdisc archive will have the full specs listed or reviews posted, but don't always count on it. Also you will probably find that stuff like the higher end Marantz and RCA players were actually decent Pioneer mid-end players rebadged or with new front panels and remotes. It really helps to dig around as you can learn quite a bit, but I only suggest it if you are going to go full on and take it seriously. If so it can be rewarding because there really is a lot of really great films on LD that were offered in special editions or letterbox, etc. Plus you get access to all the great animation released on LD.

If you're just going to be that casual movie buyer who doesn't care if he is just buying pan&scan copies of films though, then really you are not going to care what player you plan to use in the end so you would be wasting your time. Also, I'm not even going to get into the whole laserrot issue. You can google about that. Just be aware that most Discovision disc are rotted and most anything manufactured by Sony will probably have issues. 3M also made some bad disc too so just be mindful. Google it for further details.


EDIT:
Concerning Zetas remark:
Quote
In the end though, its not the SNR that makes the better players better.


It actually really does help. It makes a world of difference when you take a disc like the US release of  Richard Stanleys Hardware and toss it in a player that is only able to do something like 48db, then toss it in a player that can do better. The picture quality is pretty bad with that disc on lower end players, especially at the beginning where the wasteland scenes are involved, and it cleans up rather well in better players that even just have composite only as long as they surpass 48db. That was one of the few disc I owned that I cared to test on all the players I had because it really showed a players weakness rather fast after I was done doing general calibration settings.

If you are curious how that wasteland scene looks in Hardware:

That link has the beginning of the film where the scene takes place. The scavenger roaming the desert wasteland and finds the Mark 13. On the US LD version of it, playing it on anything with 48db made that scene almost unbearable (players like the LD-V4200 or CLD-V2800). Playing it on anything better made it more bearable and closer to the image quality of the German DVD release.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 09:49:04 AM by ProfessorProfessorson »

esteban

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2013, 10:12:54 AM »
...But in the end, who the f*ck is still playing MD games in composite in the year 2013?


Hahhahahaahaha! We've never really had an argument, so here is one topic that we may not agree on.

TANGENT: I know that I shouldn't interrupt the flow of this thread, but.... as long as I have my sad, consumer-grade CRT televisions, I'll be using composite.

Many years ago we had a decent discussion about this at PCEFX, with nearly everyone fetishizing "purity" of video signal. I argued, in contrast, for an "authentic experience" and, damn, people got upset!



If I am bored, I'll dig it up. I forgot 83% of the stuff that I wrote.  

UPDATE: Added links to ancient thread. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 10:55:21 AM by esteban »
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EvilEvoIX

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2013, 10:24:06 AM »
Laserdisc systems are fun.  Extremely High Quality Composite out which is Native for LD.    

What in the hell are you even talking about. Composite video quality, hell even svideo varied from player model to player model. Laserdisc is analog signal based technology, and the quality of the video is largely factored by what player you use. Use a shitty player or lower end player and you will get a lot of picture noise, bleeding colors, linedrops, etc on laserdisc video playback. God, f*cking noobs, I swear....


I've had a couple of LD players over the years and am quite familiar with them.  My Sony unit shit the bed and was quite poor before it literally fell apart.  Pioneer units were quite better and had superior Video out.  Based on the LD forums (yes I am EvilEvoIX there as well if you want to rant over there) it is know that most Pioneer units are superior and as far as the Laseractive unit which this thread was about and I was referring to, has superior AV out.  Before you flew off the handle on one of your rants, I'd like to point out that I was well aware of the different qualities but this thread is about the CLD-A100so it does indeed have superior AV out.

Why so angry?




Not familiar enough to prevent you from spouting off a bunch of misinformation bullshit.

The Laseracitive does not have superior AV out for laserdisc playback. It has a video signal to noise ratio of about 48 dB which is terrible for home theater laserdisc playback if you take the stuff even remotely serious. The only way to clean it up is to have a excellent tv with a really nice comb filter. Dropping the kind of cash people had to drop at retail for the thing, there is no excuse for that. It should have had better signal quality and supported svideo correctly. The svideo mod for it gives shit results.

If the thing was built tough like a lot of the industrial players that had lower quality video, that would at least make up some for the short comings. But its not, and the thing is supposed to be more then just used as a game system. Its comprised of some real budget player thin plastic parts and they break often which did not justify the launch price at all. About the only players I have seen breaking down more then a Laseractive are the carousel and combi players. Regardless of the over all weak build, the key thing you are discussing is video quality. You are completely wrong on that, 100 percent. The only thing the Laseractive has going for it is its gaming ability. As a LD player its easily one of the worst early 90s players and if you want it to last I honestly do not suggest using it as your sole LD player. If someone has one and plans to collect laserdisc I would recommend buying a refurbished mid to high end Pioneer or Panasonic for actual movie playback. Leave the Laseractive to doing what it did best, playing games, not playing Ld's.

This is coming from the guy who used to own ten players and had a massive library of rare LD's. Dig deep enough in prior post I have done around here and maybe you will spot stuff I used to have when I cared for the format.


So what your saying is you know a lot about Laser Disc (which means nothing in the real world) yet you couldn’t pick your kids out of a line-up if your life depended on it?

FYI the AV quality output is SUPERIOR to that of the MD, I read a whole thread on it showing the differences between the MD Composite output and the Laser Active output which is indeed superior.  I am no expert in LD and have dabbled in a few players, but the Standard AV out on the Laseractive while playing say sonic looks superior to that of the typical Mega Drive.  My current Laserdisc is an older Pioneer unit and doesn't see much action but looks OK on my CRT.  No reason to get but hurt and spend hours ranting while at the same time neglecting your family.  Just have a conversation and not the focus the rage you have that obviously destroyed your family.  Just saying.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 10:30:55 AM by EvilEvoIX »


Quote from: ProfessorProfessorson
I already dropped him a message on there and he did not reply back, so f*ck him, and his cunt wife.

Ji-L87

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2013, 10:27:07 AM »
That's a good chunk of info, people! :mrgreen:

Quote
Sometimes the laserdisc archive will have the full specs listed or reviews posted, but don't always count on it
Yeah, the amount of information between models really vary. Can make things a bit hard/confusing.

Quote
[If your tv has a capable comb filter it can do pretty well with that player.

Yeah, I do run my 48db CLD-V2800 through some external combfiltering + processing & scaling before feeding it into the TV and that makes a great difference in quality compared to just hooking it straight up the TV itself, even tho' the built in combfilter isn't bad at all (did the video essentials moving platter test a while back). Gives me hope for what a less noisy player can achieve.

Quote
Also, I'm not even going to get into the whole laserrot issue.

I believe I do own at least one affected disc, sadly - and of course it's a rarer release too :/ However, this one's still watchable - audio was fine last time I checked too.

Quote
...the slight grain actually gave some lds a more natural film look.

I've heard this being mentioned before but never understood what it meant, but "natural film look" = grainy picture? Hrm...why would that even be desirable?  8-[


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ProfessorProfessorson

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Re: My precious came in...
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2013, 10:41:45 AM »
The grain thing has to do with movies that were filmed via film, as opposed to digitally, is that it helps give it a more authentic look since film and grain in the image went hand in hand. It is more of a personal preference really and not anything you should really pay attention to unless that matters.


I know nuthin, just sayin...

No surprise there.