Hi-Def NES - a 1080p HDMI mod kit!

[NightWolve]

So the key point, you must downgrade to the rev 3 firmware for the NES Everdrive and it will work.

[xelement5x]

So the key point, you must downgrade to the rev 3 firmware for the NES Everdrive and it will work.

I would assume that would lower the overall compatibility list of titles that the Everdrive supports then?

[SmokeMonster]

So the key point, you must downgrade to the rev 3 firmware for the NES Everdrive and it will work.

I would assume that would lower the overall compatibility list of titles that the Everdrive supports then?

The firmware changelog is here. He's just saying that an easy short term fix is to downgrade the OS, while the long-term goal would be for Kevtris or Krikzz to pinpoint which update breaks Hi-Def compatibility. Krikzz is actually really good about implementing easy fixes like this, and I would guess that he'd be on board to add a menu option or give guidance on the issue.

The key difference added in v4 seems to be this: "Apu initialization before than run the game".

[ProfessorProfessorson]

Somethings I want to know, because evidently I missed this initially:

Does this upgrade completely replace the audio coming out of the cpu? As in, does it take over handling of the audio, and emulates it?

Per what you stated prior:

Built in overclocking with option to not have it mess up the sound pitch.


All audio is generated in the kit, so it will be %100 digital and theoretically noise free.
User will be able to control each audio channel from the menu.
You will be able to adjust left and right volume output of each channel independently.
Most expansion audio chips will also be programmed in to the kit and we hope to auto detect which one will be needed for a game that is being played, but may also have the option to turn each on and off.
Currently working: normal nes audio, fds, N106, mmc5, and sunsoft 5B.
VRC7 is still a maybe...
5.1 and 7.1 is also a maybe...

So if the audio is just emulated, how close to the original does it sound? And how will this work with games like Akumajo Densetsu?

Concerning the PPU side of things:

Aspect ratio will be user adjustable in the menu, seen as horizontal stretch in the menu in the vid.

A few palettes will be included and user selectable in the menu.
Custom palettes can be uploaded to the nesHD using a flash cart etc.

Scanlines will be included....

Is the original PPU actually doing anything in the end result, or is this upgrade being put in between the PPU and pcb, and does it just take over the image processing side of things? I ask this due to reading your statement concerning the new color pallet and scan-line options and all.

IF so, this basically means the visual side is being emulated by new hardware, correct, not just upscaling the original composite signal generated by the PPU? So what exactly does the kit need the old PPU for?

This brings me to the whole emulation aspect of it all. If this thing is just replacing the original audio with emulated audio, and replacing the ppu generated composite with a new emulated image with scan-line and color palette options, what makes the end result any different then using something like a Retron 5 clone system, or something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-Famicom-2-game-machine-Outputs-VGA-RGB-S-VIDEO-AV-With-scanlines-/271948293299?hash=item3f5161a4b3

I mean, if your not using the original audio or video signal anymore for anything, then the core of the system has basically been turned into a clone system, other then a Nintendo made PCB, system shell, and gamepads. I know it sounds dirty to put it like that, but when you state its not a clone, but then go about replacing original aspects of the hardware with emulated ones, basically that is cloning to achieve a end result.

Part of what made the Nes/Famicom special was that unique sound and look generated by the original cpu and ppu, so why would I want to replace this? Pretend I am a potential customer and convince me as to why your product would be the better replacement, as opposed to a Retron 5, the pcb in the auction, or just going with something like the NESRGB kit.

I initially thought this was just some upscaler pcb that was going to act like a cheap upscaler option, taking the composite video and cleaning it up some and upscaling it while using the original audio as an audio source, but evidently I was way off in thinking that. I should have read the initial postings about this upgrade.

[Black Tiger]

The problem with having support for Famicom audio chips, is that the Powerpak and Everdrive already emulate them, although I assume not very well. So I'm guessing that in order to make use of the onboard clone chips, new custom hacked versions of various game roms will be required. Unless one or both of the flashcarts were designed with future developments in mind, and they scan for various add-on chips when loading a game and disable emulation. I tried researching to see if this is what happens when playing FDS roms on an Disk setup, but couldn't find anyone talking about it beyond the carts emulating FDS sound. I haven't had a chance to do a comparison yet, as I was working on the case for my Everdrive and only recently got an NES to Famicom adapter for my Powerpak.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

The problem with having support for Famicom audio chips, is that the Powerpak and Everdrive already emulate them, although I assume not very well. So I'm guessing that in order to make use of the onboard clone chips, new custom hacked versions of various game roms will be required. Unless one or both of the flashcarts were designed with future developments in mind, and they scan for various add-on chips when loading a game and disable emulation. I tried researching to see if this is what happens when playing FDS roms on an Disk setup, but couldn't find anyone talking about it beyond the carts emulating FDS sound. I haven't had a chance to do a comparison yet, as I was working on the case for my Everdrive and only recently got an NES to Famicom adapter for my Powerpak.

I wouldn't want to use a PowerPak though or anything. Thats why I asked about how something like Akumajo Densetsu would be affected. I own an original of it. I don't plan to play roms, just use my original carts, etc.

[mickcris]

Deleted incorrect info. From kevtris' post the firmware is the OS files not the bios.

[Black Tiger]

The problem with having support for Famicom audio chips, is that the Powerpak and Everdrive already emulate them, although I assume not very well. So I'm guessing that in order to make use of the onboard clone chips, new custom hacked versions of various game roms will be required. Unless one or both of the flashcarts were designed with future developments in mind, and they scan for various add-on chips when loading a game and disable emulation. I tried researching to see if this is what happens when playing FDS roms on an Disk setup, but couldn't find anyone talking about it beyond the carts emulating FDS sound. I haven't had a chance to do a comparison yet, as I was working on the case for my Everdrive and only recently got an NES to Famicom adapter for my Powerpak.

I wouldn't want to use a PowerPak though or anything. Thats why I asked about how something like Akumajo Densetsu would be affected. I own an original of it. I don't plan to play roms, just use my original carts, etc.

The Powerpak is the only way I know of to play sound rips.

[GohanX]

Someone should buy my old Powerpak.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

The problem with having support for Famicom audio chips, is that the Powerpak and Everdrive already emulate them, although I assume not very well. So I'm guessing that in order to make use of the onboard clone chips, new custom hacked versions of various game roms will be required. Unless one or both of the flashcarts were designed with future developments in mind, and they scan for various add-on chips when loading a game and disable emulation. I tried researching to see if this is what happens when playing FDS roms on an Disk setup, but couldn't find anyone talking about it beyond the carts emulating FDS sound. I haven't had a chance to do a comparison yet, as I was working on the case for my Everdrive and only recently got an NES to Famicom adapter for my Powerpak.

I wouldn't want to use a PowerPak though or anything. Thats why I asked about how something like Akumajo Densetsu would be affected. I own an original of it. I don't plan to play roms, just use my original carts, etc.

The Powerpak is the only way I know of to play sound rips.

I dont want to play sound rips, just my actual games lol.

[Game-Tech.US]

Somethings I want to know, because evidently I missed this initially:

Does this upgrade completely replace the audio coming out of the cpu? As in, does it take over handling of the audio, and emulates it?

Per what you stated prior:

Built in overclocking with option to not have it mess up the sound pitch.


All audio is generated in the kit, so it will be %100 digital and theoretically noise free.
User will be able to control each audio channel from the menu.
You will be able to adjust left and right volume output of each channel independently.
Most expansion audio chips will also be programmed in to the kit and we hope to auto detect which one will be needed for a game that is being played, but may also have the option to turn each on and off.
Currently working: normal nes audio, fds, N106, mmc5, and sunsoft 5B.
VRC7 is still a maybe...
5.1 and 7.1 is also a maybe...

So if the audio is just emulated, how close to the original does it sound? And how will this work with games like Akumajo Densetsu?

Concerning the PPU side of things:

Aspect ratio will be user adjustable in the menu, seen as horizontal stretch in the menu in the vid.

A few palettes will be included and user selectable in the menu.
Custom palettes can be uploaded to the nesHD using a flash cart etc.

Scanlines will be included....

Is the original PPU actually doing anything in the end result, or is this upgrade being put in between the PPU and pcb, and does it just take over the image processing side of things? I ask this due to reading your statement concerning the new color pallet and scan-line options and all.

IF so, this basically means the visual side is being emulated by new hardware, correct, not just upscaling the original composite signal generated by the PPU? So what exactly does the kit need the old PPU for?

This brings me to the whole emulation aspect of it all. If this thing is just replacing the original audio with emulated audio, and replacing the ppu generated composite with a new emulated image with scan-line and color palette options, what makes the end result any different then using something like a Retron 5 clone system, or something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIY-Famicom-2-game-machine-Outputs-VGA-RGB-S-VIDEO-AV-With-scanlines-/271948293299?hash=item3f5161a4b3

I mean, if your not using the original audio or video signal anymore for anything, then the core of the system has basically been turned into a clone system, other then a Nintendo made PCB, system shell, and gamepads. I know it sounds dirty to put it like that, but when you state its not a clone, but then go about replacing original aspects of the hardware with emulated ones, basically that is cloning to achieve a end result.

Part of what made the Nes/Famicom special was that unique sound and look generated by the original cpu and ppu, so why would I want to replace this? Pretend I am a potential customer and convince me as to why your product would be the better replacement, as opposed to a Retron 5, the pcb in the auction, or just going with something like the NESRGB kit.

I initially thought this was just some upscaler pcb that was going to act like a cheap upscaler option, taking the composite video and cleaning it up some and upscaling it while using the original audio as an audio source, but evidently I was way off in thinking that. I should have read the initial postings about this upgrade.

Kevtris isn't a member here and can't even see these post so I asked him to reply:

I "digitally recreate" the sound because I have to make a digital version of it for HDMI.  The only other option would be to do audio capture, but that is lame because it would introduce noise.   the decision to "digitally recreate" the audio was not taken lightly, and produces the best end result.

The PPU is rendering 100% of the video.  The hi-def nes captures the digital video on the PPU's EXP pins.  The other things (scalers, scanlines) are just added on after capturing the video because I can.   I have to "lie" to the PPU to turn on the EXP pins and change the palette going to the chip so that the video pin can be used to capture the 5th palette entry bit.

You can watch the video coming out of the PPU to see how this works.  the sprites will be white and the background black.    The RGBNES board works in a very similar manner.  I think it uses white and grey, though.  It also extracts the video in the same manner I do.

The NES CPU is still rendering the audio, you can listen in if you like.  The benefit of regenerating it digitally is cleaner audio, and if you overclock the CPU, the audio pitch won't change (you can turn this on/off).  If you listen to the analog audio during overclocking, the pitch will shift.

Since the NES CPU is still running the game code, and the NES PPU is still rendering ALL the video (the HDN does not render video) then it isn't a clone system.  Adding audio rendering to the FPGA simply was required to get the highest quality HDMI possible.    If you remove the CPU or PPU, the device will no longer work.   If it was a "clone system" it should be possible to remove either or both chips and have the system continue to function.  This of course is not the case.

End quote.

I believe the retron 5 has been proven to be an android OS running emulators, in fact I think several of the emulators allegedly infringe on the rights of multiple emulator authors:
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/09/hyperkins_retron_5_console_allegedly_infringes_on_the_rights_of_multiple_emulator_authors
I never heard if there was any resolution of this issue though...

It does appear that famicom kit has a UMC cpu clone chip, which we also tested a cpu/ppu pair on the hi-def and they worked like originals. I pulled them from a brazillian clone I have. The video looks to be recreated on a fpga.

Also, the kit will do all expansion audio chips without there even being original exp audio chips/circuits present, only the mapper needs to be on the cart, but you do have to turn them on in the hi-def's menu. CV3 uses vrc6 swap, and iirc it's the only game that does, but it's there!

[Medic_wheat]

You know Game-Tech.US, I really want to ask, because I remember dropping you a pm prior about one of your region mod pcbs and you not wanting to sell it or whatever, do you even actually sell any of the stuff you guys come up with? Or do you just come on to forums and try to get attention about it so you can use the free advertising to sell your premodded systems & mod work only?

Because honestly this doesn't feel like an effort being made to help any given community, here or elsewhere. It just comes off as a giant push towards lining ones wallet, both yours and the guys at Analogue Nt. I mean seriously, ebay and $300 minimum bids? Totally disgusting. If I had known this was your end game, the way you planned to release this shit, I'd have simply said f*ck off from jump street and stopped paying any kind of attention to this. Total f*cking waste of time.

Yup region mod pcb are still coming, in fact the tg-16 only version, the one that worked fine with the TED from the start, should be for sale soon. When I get time to make a vid about it i'll post it.
The duo/r/x version seems to work fine with the TED in US and JP duo/r/x's, but still not in the white pce or coregrafx so it was once again recently sent to thesteve to see if he could uncover a fix, if not it will prolly still be sold as for use with duo and duo-r/x only or not with TED on other consoles. I just keep wondering if ppl will even want it for pce systems since system cards are about the only thing the TED won't do so why bother trying to make it work on jp consoles?

Oh and the NT 'partnership' had nothing to do with me, in fact I wasn't told about it till everyone else already knew as well.
Already explained the $300 start bid reasoning as well, scroll back up to see that.

That's odd. And I ask only because there is a flailing robot in my head saying "does not comput!" 

Maybe because I don't know the ins and outs of your channel review tech USA and how you work with Krevious (sorry if I junked up his name) but.

Aren't you two working together on the HD upgrade kit for the NES? 

So any decisions made on how the board it distributed or sold as well as supply and demand for it has to be a joint desision?

I vaguely remember you mentioning doing an exclusivity deal with Stone Age Gamer for these kits. If that was the case then yeah you'd have to be just as informed as your partner.


But like I said I don't know the full story or big picture. Maybe you just do the moding and have a back log of systems to mod and flip to keep these projects going and anything the developer of the board does is his own thing.

So let's say you where not aware about the partnership with Nt.

Where did the money earned from the deal go?

Why are they offering it at $75 installed instead of $120 stand alone kit?

Where does this place your HD NES kit with other potential distributors like Stone Age now that you have some sort of exclusivity deal with Nt and their NES system? 

I ask simply because I have interest. This isn't to flame anyone or point and scream like a pod person.

[SephirothTNH]

That's odd. And I ask only because there is a flailing robot in my head saying "does not comput!" 

Maybe because I don't know the ins and outs of your channel review tech USA and how you work with Krevious (sorry if I junked up his name) but.

Aren't you two working together on the HD upgrade kit for the NES? 

So any decisions made on how the board it distributed or sold as well as supply and demand for it has to be a joint desision?

I was kind of shocked by this as well.  But Kevtris did do all the work.  I think Jason simply had the initial idea.  It is Kevtris's product though.  I guess Jason doesn't really get a say in what Kev does with it.  Which I'm not going to judge because I don't know how their relationship is/was setup. 

*just for future readers sake.  Gametech usa and review tech usa are two different youtubers.  Review Tech USA has nothing to do with this.   

Why are they offering it at $75 installed instead of $120 stand alone kit?

This is just speculation but obviously when you buy 400 of something it costs you less per unit than buying 1 of something.  So this really shouldn't be shocking.  Beyond that maybe kevtris sold them with no tech support intended.  Like you can have them at this price but once I ship them I wash my hands of it.  Only Kevtris and Analogue knows the nature of that deal.  Also maybe analogue is just willing to swallow some of those costs since your buying this on top of a $500 NES. 

But maybe your surprised because analogue is such a shitty company?  In that case I agree; why aren't they selling the upgrade for $120 or more.  The systems aren't out yet though so there's still time for them to change it. 

[Medic_wheat]

That's odd. And I ask only because there is a flailing robot in my head saying "does not comput!" 

Maybe because I don't know the ins and outs of your channel review tech USA and how you work with Krevious (sorry if I junked up his name) but.

Aren't you two working together on the HD upgrade kit for the NES? 

So any decisions made on how the board it distributed or sold as well as supply and demand for it has to be a joint desision?

I was kind of shocked by this as well.  But Kevtris did do all the work.  I think Jason simply had the initial idea.  It is Kevtris's product though.  I guess Jason doesn't really get a say in what Kev does with it.  Which I'm not going to judge because I don't know how their relationship is/was setup. 

*just for future readers sake.  Gametech usa and review tech usa are two different youtubers.  Review Tech USA has nothing to do with this.   

Why are they offering it at $75 installed instead of $120 stand alone kit?

This is just speculation but obviously when you buy 400 of something it costs you less per unit than buying 1 of something.  So this really shouldn't be shocking.  Beyond that maybe kevtris sold them with no tech support intended.  Like you can have them at this price but once I ship them I wash my hands of it.  Only Kevtris and Analogue knows the nature of that deal.  Also maybe analogue is just willing to swallow some of those costs since your buying this on top of a $500 NES. 

But maybe your surprised because analogue is such a shitty company?  In that case I agree; why aren't they selling the upgrade for $120 or more.  The systems aren't out yet though so there's still time for them to change it.

Lol man here I am mixing up YouTube channels. Thanks for the clarification.

[ProfessorProfessorson]

much tech stuff kinda quoted...

With the audio then I guess my concern would be just how close to the original it sounds. I'm fairly picky about this. So are many other people. Its not much different the with the Genesis early Model 1 revisions audio compared to the later ones or the Model 2, or compared to emulation. TBH I hate most of the Model 2 revisions audio, along with emulators, but you will still have people insisting it sounds fine, and close to the original, when it does not in any way, shape, or form. It is only passable at best when compared to initial Model 1 revisions.

So I guess this is something that would be interesting to see/listen to some side by sides done. This includes running games like Akumajo Densetsu and FDS games running off a legit FDS, to compare the audio quality to.