Author Topic: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer  (Read 2810 times)

Gentlegamer

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2016, 06:07:40 AM »

Black Tiger

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2016, 06:51:28 AM »
That Game Zone review was 99% filler and what little was communicated about the game could have been based on screen shots alone. It reads like the dialogue in all these terrible youtube video perspnality videos that everyone loves today. Did many people actual read that mag bitd?

Is it the same one with the douche who bragged about how you can only unlock Sheng Long in WW if you are as super skilled as he was when he did it and snapped the photos (identical to EGM's) all without the ability to pause?
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Bonknuts

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2016, 08:53:38 AM »
I'm not sure why people are once again bitching about some stupid parallax comment, when they are ignoring the elephant in the room.

 Because this is a very common trend with Black Falcon. He really doesn't understand underlying hardware architecture, let alone more simplistic concepts like parallax. Once he makes this connection from one idea to another, there's no changing it. It is etched in stone in his brain.

 Parallax means just what it is; different scroll speeds for parts of the display to give the illusion of depth. Whether they over lap, made up of sprites, backgrounds, straight pixel driven, or some other method or however complex it is... parallax is parallax. His statement could be reduced to "limited parallax" and that would be very accurate. Instead, he asserts his misunderstanding to go out of the way to point something that ends up being incorrect. It's not just PCE reviews; he does this for other systems as well.

 There is no such thing as fake parallax. It's either parallax or not. And if it is, it falls somewhere between complex and simple, hardware assisted and software driven, etc. If it's parallax, then there only exists the attribute of how it was derived. "Fake" or pseudo is not a qualifier.

 The other connection that this game was rushed because the SFC? There's no evidence to support that. It's just haphazard speculation, which should be stated as such and not passed off as self evident. Where I come from, we call that talking out your ass.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 08:55:36 AM by Bonknuts »

Black Tiger

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2016, 09:00:18 AM »
Parallax pre-dates video games and even film.

The idea that tile layers only count is so intentionally ignorant that it disqualifies most consoles since the almightly SNES.

Why doesn't ABF go to great length to point out in SNES reviews how most large sprites are fake?
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Otaking

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2016, 09:40:09 AM »
I'm a huge SFC fanboy but I don't agree at all that the PC Engine was fading in 91.
 

NightWolve

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2016, 12:31:12 PM »
IN DEFENSE OF LONG-FORM

The one thing I love about Black Falcon is that he takes the time to write long-form. It provides a unique experience that is sorely lacking :). Think of it as a "journey"... the purpose of writing can, and should, go beyond bullet points.

There are SO MANY "CAPSULE" (abbreviated) reviews (in all formats—written, podcast, video), I am so happy to read something that takes longer than 30 seconds.

Black Falcon *knows* that 99% of folks only want "very short summaries"... He is clearly *not* writing for this demographic (short attention span).

The pacing and scope of long-form writing is quite enjoyable to me—I want *more* of it—regardless of whether or not I agree with it. :) I feel that Black Falcon is a kindred spirit, in this regard. I feel like I can get to *know* an author through the choices he/she makes in how to present his/her ideas (long-form vs. short-form, formal vs. informal, etc.) and  not just via an author's opinions on game ____.

In fact, I would argue that although a significant amount of my enjoyment is derived from "having a dialogue" with arguments/theses that I don't find compelling...I also enjoy critiquing the style/format an author uses (as folks here have done—critiquing BF's overly verbose style :) )

Anyway, bottom line: the world is catered to short-attention-spans...which is a tragedy.

I want more of this: http://www.2-dimensions.com

(Click on any of his "Anatomy of..." projects.... I don't agree with every aspect of his analyses...but only a long-form allows for such a unique experience of exploring and grappling with game design and user experience).

NOTE: I know I am in the minority on this issue. :)

Well said, agreed. "Kindred spirit," I like that. ;) But yeah, I'm sure he knows people in general prefer short, pithy, etc. he's just not catering to that demographic. It's a tough catch-22, you wanna fully explore and detail as much aspects about the game, to fully capture your thoughts, but you risk that most people will see those large blocks of text and opt not to read it, I get that (I'm accused of verbosity here as well). You have to do a great job to make it VERY interesting (a mix of entertaining helps too) to overcome that default inclination.

I sort of just appreciate that there's someone still reviewing these old retro games regardless of length but it seems he catches heat every time he posts one here. I think we're used to the opposite extreme, people talk, but have very little to say which doesn't make for very compelling or interesting conversations/debates around here. Average posts are in the 1-2 sentence range, chatroom-style. Like you said, "Anyway, bottom line: the world is catered to short-attention-spans...which is a tragedy."

A Black Falcon

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 06:25:12 PM »
In the review, I said this about parallax: "  The developers even pull off a 'parallax-like effect; there is no real parallax scrolling, of course, but the developers do make some clouds quickly move past in many stages to give some of that feeling of movement. It's great and definitely helps.  "

I was trying to praise the game, but reading it again it can be improved.  It's somewhat ironic that I always get complaints about my writing being too long from some, and too short from others... because if the issue here is saying "real" and "parallax-like", that's just shorthand for "the whole background does not move, only those clouds".  That is what I meant there, though some here clearly misunderstand that.  So, improved version:

"  The developers even pull off a limited parallax effect.  The whole background does not have multiple layers in it, but there are clouds which quickly move across the sky in many stages, to give some of that feeling of parallax movement.  It's a great effect and definitely helps."

I imagine I'll still get complaints, but it's probably a more accurate summation of what I think of the clouds.

Because this is a very common trend with Black Falcon. He really doesn't understand underlying hardware architecture, let alone more simplistic concepts like parallax. Once he makes this connection from one idea to another, there's no changing it. It is etched in stone in his brain.

By making this quite insulting comment you ruin most value from the arguments in the rest of your post, you know.  Insults are rude and unnecessary!

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Parallax means just what it is; different scroll speeds for parts of the display to give the illusion of depth. Whether they over lap, made up of sprites, backgrounds, straight pixel driven, or some other method or however complex it is... parallax is parallax. His statement could be reduced to "limited parallax" and that would be very accurate. Instead, he asserts his misunderstanding to go out of the way to point something that ends up being incorrect. It's not just PCE reviews; he does this for other systems as well.

 There is no such thing as fake parallax. It's either parallax or not. And if it is, it falls somewhere between complex and simple, hardware assisted and software driven, etc. If it's parallax, then there only exists the attribute of how it was derived. "Fake" or pseudo is not a qualifier.

I'm not "misunderstanding" anything, I'm just using terms in a way you disagree with.    Let's look at what this actually should be about, this review.  Had this game had full multi-layer backgrounds, as you see in some TG16 platformers (Bravoman, Rondo of Blood, Valis IV, and such), I'd call it parallax.  However, Dragon Egg! does not do that; it just has clouds it moves by in the sky and nothing else.  You're being too reductive by calling all parallax equal; no, the quality of the effect does matter.  Something with a full parallax background (like Valis IV) has more and better parallax than something with only strip-parallax, for example.  In my game opinion summary of Valis IV a couple of years ago, I said " Ingame graphics are great — this game has parallax-scrolling backgrounds in many levels!" with no qualifiers.  And that's accurate.  In this review I say something different because this games' clouds are not on that level.

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The other connection that this game was rushed because the SFC? There's no evidence to support that. It's just haphazard speculation, which should be stated as such and not passed off as self evident. Where I come from, we call that talking out your ass.

A conclusion based on a significant amount of evidence is not just a guess that deserves such insulting language.  The game released at a time when the system was still selling but was declining from its 1990 peak, and months before NEC released the Duo and refocused onto CDs as SNES sales skyrocketed.  The game was NCS Masaya's last HuCard release; they entirely switched over to CDs after this game.  It released with the second half of the game only maybe half-finished at best.   So you have a better explanation than mine that considers all of these facts?

I'm a huge SFC fanboy but I don't agree at all that the PC Engine was fading in 91.

What would you say, just past peak?  Because it was on the decline, though it was still successful that year.

A majority of the PCE's lifetime sales in Japan happened from launch through March 1991, according to NEC's numbers: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=981407  Note how in 3/91 the system was at 3.65 million sold (including the CD addon and HuCard systems combined).  It finished at 5.84 million, well under double that number.  We don't have good separate numbers for the PCE and CD addon before 1992, but we do know the (non-CD/Duo) PCE was at 3.65 million sold in March '92, and finished at 3.92 as of 1994.  By '92 the base PCE was pretty much dead sales-wise.  Of course, the system did keep selling in Duo form, but the Duo and CD addon combined sold 1.92 million, roughly half for each of them (so a bit under a million each), so the majority of people with a PCE did not buy a CD addon.  And most games released in the Duo era were CD titles, not HuCard.

So, based on the numbers we have, the system sold better each year from 3/88 to 3/91, reaching a max of 1.3 million in the year that ended in March '91 (again, base system and CD addon sales combined).  Then in the year after that it sold a million, still pretty good though a little bit down... but the year after that saw only 300k sold.  So yeah, '91 was a good year, but just past peak.

As for Nintendo and the Super Famicom: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701305  In Japan, the SFC sold 1.4 million in the year ending Mar. '91, 3 million in the year ending 3/'92, and 4 million in the year ending 3/'93.  By March '92 the SFC had sold better in Japan than the non-CD PC Engine.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 06:52:12 PM by A Black Falcon »

lukester

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2016, 02:09:30 AM »
Black Falcon must be really fun at parties...such a boring individual

Also, this is the guy who thinks the Virtual Boy is better than the PS2.

Necromancer

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2016, 03:31:08 AM »
By making this quite insulting comment you ruin most value from the arguments in the rest of your post, you know.  Insults are rude and unnecessary!

It's not an insult, it's fact that your definition of 'parallax' contradicts the dictionary.

I'm not "misunderstanding" anything, I'm just using terms in a way you disagree with.

Only trolls, fools, and biased liars argue with the dictionary.  Which one are you?

In any case, you've changed the line to say it's limited parallax instead of fake, which is exactly what Bonknuts suggested.  He made no argument about 'all parallax being equal'; that's just you making things up to support your agenda.

A conclusion based on a significant amount of evidence is not just a guess that deserves such insulting language. 

Again, it's not an insult when it's 100% true.  You have zero proof that it being unfinished was due to the SFC; it's called conjecture, look it up.

Without something from Masaya themselves, we'll never know why it was unfinished.  It could be a response to the SFC, sure, but it could just as easily be due to budget/time constraints, staff changes, corporate priority shifts, or any number of other factors.
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Otaking

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2016, 08:13:10 AM »
I'm a huge SFC fanboy but I don't agree at all that the PC Engine was fading in 91.

What would you say, just past peak?  Because it was on the decline, though it was still successful that year.

A majority of the PCE's lifetime sales in Japan happened from launch through March 1991, according to NEC's numbers: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=981407  Note how in 3/91 the system was at 3.65 million sold (including the CD addon and HuCard systems combined).  It finished at 5.84 million, well under double that number.  We don't have good separate numbers for the PCE and CD addon before 1992, but we do know the (non-CD/Duo) PCE was at 3.65 million sold in March '92, and finished at 3.92 as of 1994.  By '92 the base PCE was pretty much dead sales-wise.  Of course, the system did keep selling in Duo form, but the Duo and CD addon combined sold 1.92 million, roughly half for each of them (so a bit under a million each), so the majority of people with a PCE did not buy a CD addon.  And most games released in the Duo era were CD titles, not HuCard.

So, based on the numbers we have, the system sold better each year from 3/88 to 3/91, reaching a max of 1.3 million in the year that ended in March '91 (again, base system and CD addon sales combined).  Then in the year after that it sold a million, still pretty good though a little bit down... but the year after that saw only 300k sold.  So yeah, '91 was a good year, but just past peak.

As for Nintendo and the Super Famicom: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701305  In Japan, the SFC sold 1.4 million in the year ending Mar. '91, 3 million in the year ending 3/'92, and 4 million in the year ending 3/'93.  By March '92 the SFC had sold better in Japan than the non-CD PC Engine.


I won't argue my point further as you've gone to the review and edited out and changed what you originally said.

Vimtoman

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2016, 10:37:42 AM »
For a PC Engine platform game I ike it. :?

It has Dragons. 8-[

That's one bottle of merlot inspiration. :dance:
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 10:40:19 AM by Vimtoman »

A Black Falcon

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2016, 05:16:22 PM »
Thanks for the review.

@ A Black Falcon, you seem to have a talent for writing reviews, have you ever considered writing your own printed fanzine?
The guy's printed fanzine who I linked to in my signature has done really well and sent loads of them all round the world.
I have actually had someone mention this, but I don't understand, what would be the demand for an actual paper fanzine if that is what you mean when the internet exists?  I do have that blog where most of my game writing stuff goes, after all...

doesn't sound like it's your thing.
Sorry, I missed this one... but no, that's not what I meant.  Of course the idea of printed versions of my stuff is an interesting idea, I just don't quite see where the market would be... it's hard enough getting people to read something on the internet! :p (Plus, it'd be a lot of work and I am not any kind of graphic artist; I mostly like the writing part, more so than finding screenshots even, much less making a magazine... but sure, despite that it's an interesting idea.)

It's not an insult
It's an insult.

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it's fact that your definition of 'parallax' contradicts the dictionary.

Only trolls, fools, and biased liars argue with the dictionary.  Which one are you?
I'm not arguing with the dictionary, so none of the above.

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In any case, you've changed the line to say it's limited parallax instead of fake, which is exactly what Bonknuts suggested.
I never said "fake parallax"!  I originally said "a parallax-like effect".  I did change it, and I do think it's more accurate now, but I never said, or thought of saying, the word "fake".  You're reading more into it than was there.

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He made no argument about 'all parallax being equal'; that's just you making things up to support your agenda.
Uh, what?  He spent a whole paragraph saying "all parallax is parallax".

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Again, it's not an insult when it's 100% true.
When you meanly insult someone, you are insulting them and that's wrong.  Debate based on facts and opinions, not personal attacks -- those get you nowhere.

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You have zero proof that it being unfinished was due to the SFC; it's called conjecture, look it up.

Without something from Masaya themselves, we'll never know why it was unfinished.  It could be a response to the SFC, sure, but it could just as easily be due to budget/time constraints, staff changes, corporate priority shifts, or any number of other factors.
If you want to write something more than just a recitation of facts, as I do, what you do is first you look at the evidence, then you try to come up with a theory that explains it.  And while we certainly don't know the definite truth behind why the game released as it is, there's no harm in trying to figure it out.

Gredler

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2016, 05:46:11 PM »
Debate based on facts and opinions

Kinda like the fact this game was rushed; not mismanaged, poorly planned, or designed into a corner.

Duke Nukem Forever - if only they had a little more time and money.

esteban

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Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2016, 07:38:18 PM »
If you had simply titled this "Dragon Egg — A Game that feels as if it was rushed out the door" you would have an easier time. Note the qualifier "As if" ...

:)






 
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He made no argument about 'all parallax being equal'; that's just you making things up to support your agenda.
Uh, what?  He spent a whole paragraph saying "all parallax is parallax".

Comrade!

Go back and re-read what he wrote!

His post was excellent and it was very clear:

(1) parallax is a visual effect (be it achieved via hardware, software or a combination of the two) and therefore there is no such category as "parallax-like"... the visual effect exists, even if it is "uninspired" or "a few clouds"

(2) that said, he *clearly* points out that *not* all examples of parallax  are visually impressive... *not* all examples are as enjoyable for the viewer... He was simply explaining that you should judge the *aesthetics* of a parallax effect (how kool is it? How effective? Does it heighten the experience?) instead of rooting your criticism in the hardware/software responsible for the effect.

Point #2 is what you have been arguing (I thought)...that some PCE games do not have impressive parallax scrolling effects.

"Lame vs. Awesome" should be determined by aesthetics and user experience, not technical trivia.

:)







ASIDE:
Anyway, although it is exceedingly rare, sometimes even "lame" parallax, when used at precisely the right moment, can really heighten the experience of a game.

A few lame clouds scrolling past in Dragon Egg will never be as impressive, as say, the burnt-orange clouds that scroll violently around Darm Tower at the end of Ys I...just as the bell tolls...and the harsh, howling wind (via Red Book) collectively create one of the most dramatic, atmospheric moments in the game. Technically, Ys I's effects are CHOPPY! but, thankfully, they are *passable* because they *add to the greatness* of that emotional moment in the game. Normally, choppy scrolling clouds detracts from a game...

See? Even technically subpar parallax was used effectively to heighten the experience of the player.

Why do I bring this up?

To demonstrate that *context* + aesthetics + player's experience is the most productive way to critique a game. Ys I is a visually  *static* experience...until a very brief SUNDOWN @Darm Tower.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 07:53:16 PM by esteban »
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Necromancer

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Re: Review: Dragon Egg - A Good but Rushed Platformer
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2016, 03:08:42 AM »
I'm not arguing with the dictionary, so none of the above.

Liar.  You argue continually that parallax items aren't really parallax because they don't look good enough and/or aren't made using two+ tile layers.

I never said "fake parallax"!  I originally said "a parallax-like effect".  I did change it, and I do think it's more accurate now, but I never said, or thought of saying, the word "fake".  You're reading more into it than was there.

You may not have specifically said the word "fake", but you did say "there is no real parallax scrolling", and what's the opposite of real?  Again, your pants are on fire.

Uh, what?  He spent a whole paragraph saying "all parallax is parallax".

In a technical sense based on the dictionary definition of parallax, yes, but you're twisting that to claim he said they're all equal in terms of how good they look.  If you weren't so wrapped up in your ego and unable to admit you're wrong, you'd understand there's a difference.
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