Huzak - Yet another music driver

[Michirin9801]

If I may offer my own perspective (also, sorry for my absence in the last few days)
I don't have a whole lot of experience with music, just a little over 2 years of self-taught covering of whatever I can listen to on Hoot or JCOM-SPC, among others, and I started off with Musagi which is an amateur-friendly DAW (sort of), but I saw a lot of people using Famitracker to make music for the Nintendo, and to me the thing looked like a bloody mess, I mean, it's a spreadsheet with a bunch of numbers and letters, dafuq? How does that work? But then I've heard that the music they were making would run in real hardware (so long as they aren't using expansion chips) and that was like: Wow! I wish I could make music that would run in real hardware! But you know, I don't wanna make music for the Nintendo, everyone and their moms already do Nintendo, it's so overdone, I wanna do something more powerful, more capable, more sophisticate! I wanna do chiptunes for the 16 bit systems!
And then I discovered Deflemask, and again, I thought it was a mess, but after a friend of mine explained to me how it worked it simply clicked with me and I started doing music for the PC engine! And after I started using Deflemask I never went back to Musagi (well, I did once, but then never again)

I'm a bit of a lazy and impatient person, and I like immediate feedback, and with Deflemask I get that immediate feedback! The software may be really flawed, but it's really quick and easy to make something awesome-sounding in it! But as I've said before, I would attempt to learn MML if I had to, but PC engine music isn't really my main motivation to do MML, it's PC-98 music, I mean, I can already do PCE music in Deflemask, but the only way to make music for the PC-98 as far as I'm concerned is by using PMD, which requires MML, but even that I have a work-around for, which is to use 6 FM channels of the YM2151 and 1 ADPCM channel in Deflemask for custom samples, then I use the other ADPCM channels for the RSS, and 3 channels of the PCE doing only square waves and/or noise in another instance of Deflemask to simulate the SSG, and then I put the two together and voila! I have something pretty close to PC-98 sound! (Why not just use Genesis you ask? Because it just doesn't sound as good, I have to sacrifice 1 FM channel to get a really s***ty PCM and the SMS PSG can't go low enough in pitch)

Having to learn MML would require me to pretty much start over, I might do it if I have to, but I'm not in a hurry... But that's not all, having the knowledge of one tracker helps you work on pretty much any other tracker, after much stubborn hesitation I gave in and tried out Famitracker, but with two rules:
1 - Triangle bass is Forbidden! It's Sunsoft DPCM bass or nothing!
2 - No expansion chips, raw NES only!
And yeah, Famitracker is also pretty easy and fun to use! And then I tried OpenMPT, which is NOT easy and fun to use, but after a whole lot of tinkering with it I've managed to get it to control almost like Deflemask, it's close enough, but still really clunky in comparison... But hey! I can make Super Nintendo music with it! And it WILL run in real hardware! My dreams had come true~ (Well, some of them at least)
It's kinda like Fighting games you know? Some people think the button commands are a mess, but once it clicks with you they're a lot of fun and you don't wanna stop playing them, and the knowledge of one fighting game transfers into pretty much all others! (The good ones at least)

So what's the point of this wall of text? Well there's a few:
One: Me and a few other people are passionate retro-gamers and hobbyist musicians who want to hear their songs playing in real hardware, and maybe even in a real game, but can't be arsed to start over with a whole other method of making music than the ones they're used to just to go through with that desire...
Two: NINTENDO MUSIC IS OVERDONE! Do more PC engine and Super Nintendo music goddamnit! (Or at least do more DPCM bass!)
Three: I want an OPN/OPNA compatible tracker, but that's a matter for another forum entirely...

[Arkhan]

So you sort of just confirmed what I said, lol.

Trackers were painful / weird to you in the beginning as well.   You had to have someone explain it, and show you it, on top of probably loading up other people's examples to figure out how the wall of text somehow equates to sounds. 

This is what a lot of people did, and now they like trackers by default.  They're popular by virtue of being the only real option. 

Oddly enough, I grew up on Octamed, Protracker, and then OpenMPT on Windows... and Impulse/Scream Tracker/FastTracker.     I'm pretty experienced with using them.    I just hate using them.   I used to sample crap on my Amiga500 all the time.   It was pretty janky, to be honest.   I liked this program called EMS on C64 way more, but nobody uses that anymore I don't think.   EMS 7 had a tight intro song.

   and the demo for 10 belts out some YMO, so that's cool.    The MSX YMO mix is better though...   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YjYEJ9WHt4     

I think the bit lots of people miss is that you don't really compose in MML.   It's a clunky, mental thing to try to do.   

You just translate your stuff over to it once you write a thing.   You don't realize it but you're sort of almost doing MML by punching crap into a tracker, to be honest.   The durations are changed into the space between notes.   If you turn your head sideways while doing MML, it's close to a tracker, lol.   You can translate (or convert) your tracker tunes to MML.    You'll probably have to redo slides/etc.. 

Here's an example of what I mean though:

Chimera for C64, the original song:

put onto the C64:

It wasn't composed on the C64.   It was just put there later.

This has become my preferred method, because I often find it easier to just compose a song on a keyboard or with a guitar.   I can imagine what I would want stuff to sound like, so then I just do the sound shaping once I've converted the actual song.

and it also means I can recycle the music.    Insanity's entire soundtrack exists as FruityLoops files.   I can barf the midi out to real synthesizers and drum machines, or, what I did at the time, was run the lead MIDI out into a real C64, and let fruity loops control a real C64 for the lead and bass sounds... and then the audio came back to the PC to record it and put it in the song. 

You get more options if you break into a piece of software designed for professional music.   Being able to create CD/chip music simultaneously is also a nice perk.   

This doesn't work for everyone though, since it requires knowing how to use music instruments (or punching notes in via a piano roll with the mouse).

You might enjoy trying it out sometime though, because it will give you the added benefit of accidentally picking up how to play a keyboard or something.    there's lots of free DAWs out there, and free VSTs that emulate a bunch of old machines.



Also, I agree that Nintendo music is overdone.  The word chiptune isn't even completely accurate anymore.   It's become slang for "NES/Gameboy wankmusic". 

That's what everyone does.   So, I am glad there are more people coming to TurboTown to make music.    I made sure to avoid creating music for all the Aetherbyte games that sounded like typical chiptune hoojoo nonsense.   

f*ck arps.

[esteban]

...f*ck arps.

Unacceptable.

[Bonknuts]

If I may offer ..

Please make this song for PCE

[Michirin9801]

So you sort of just confirmed what I said, lol.

Trackers were painful / weird to you in the beginning as well.   You had to have someone explain it, and show you it, on top of probably loading up other people's examples to figure out how the wall of text somehow equates to sounds. 

Well, kind of... The point I was kinda trying to make is that they look harder to use than they actually are, but once it clicks with you you don't wanna go back to other music-making methods because using a tracker is a lot easier, quicker and more fun!
Or at least I didn't want to go back to using Chip32 and C-700 with Musagi, it's really slow and clunky in comparison, it looks more intuitive, but there's a reason why I never went back to it...

That said though I don't have to use a DAW to make a MIDI when OpenMPT can export MIDIs! If I were to use the MIDI-to-MML alternative I'd just use OpenMPT, however I'd still have to learn how to clean up the MML so that it would sound the way I want it to sound, and then comes the part where I said I'm lazy, impatient, not in a hurry and like the immediate feedback that I get from a tracker, which is more of a 'Me' problem than an MML problem... Someday it will be nice to get into in order to make real PC-98 music, but for PC engine, I'm just glad that there's people like elmer making a sound engine that can actually put the stuff I can make right now to good use!

Now I completely understand and respect that you prefer to use DAWs and use MML to make real chiptunes, but a whole lot of people have grown accustomed to trackers, and I believe the reason why I like them is the reason why most of the other tracker-users do...

Also, I agree that Nintendo music is overdone.  The word chiptune isn't even completely accurate anymore.   It's become slang for "NES/Gameboy wankmusic". 

That's what everyone does.   So, I am glad there are more people coming to TurboTown to make music.    I made sure to avoid creating music for all the Aetherbyte games that sounded like typical chiptune hoojoo nonsense.   

f*ck arps.

Hooray! I'm not the only one o//
But still, Sunsoft's DPCM Bass is cool, it's the one thing that people don't do a lot on NES but should, and Game Boy is WAY better than NES because channel 3 does 4 bit wavetables instead of a bloody triangle, triangle makes for a terrible bass, but heck, you're better off putting the bass on one of the pulse channels and using the DAC to play the lead, that way you can make the GB sound less like a 'better NES' and more like a 'not-as-good PCE' which is high praise coming from me...

[Arkhan]

I use Fruity Loops.   I settled on it after trying CuBase, Cakewalk, that other overrated piece of crap on Mac, and TMidity on Linux.   It's turned out to be one of the best things ever to use.

I assure you, in the end, this way is quicker and more intuitive than a tracker for making music.    It may not be for getting a chiptune once this Deflemask stuff gets going, but for the act of writing a song, these things tend to work better.    Huelsbeck and such aren't even trackering nowadays. 

There is a slight learning curve (like a tracker) where you have to learn what each menu does, but then you realize it's broken down like a real instrument's parts:

1) Step sequencer (pick your instruments)
2) Piano roll (slap notes in!)
3) Timeline (Put your patterns together)
4) Mixer (duh)

I looked up Musagi.   It looks like an eyesore designed by someone who doesn't know what contrast is.  I am sorry you had to use that.  It looks awful! 

and yep, you can definitely use OpenMPT to get midis.  4 songs from Insanity were old, old, old MOD files from Amiga that I made as a kid.  I opened them in OpenMPT and saved the MML out, lol.

This is what FruityLoops looks like, with an FM VST. 


I've never had great luck getting any of my VSTs to work with a tracker.  It sucks.  MilkyTracker and reNoise would just go retarded.

In theory, you could use 3MLE to write songs in MML with a piano roll.  It has an on-screen keyboard, and might do MIDI input. 

It's pretty straightforward.   It's a shame there's no PCE sounds with it, though.   It's all MIDI.   

[elmer]

I use Fruity Loops.   I settled on it after trying CuBase, Cakewalk, that other overrated piece of crap on Mac, and TMidity on Linux.   It's turned out to be one of the best things ever to use.

I assure you, in the end, this way is quicker and more intuitive than a tracker for making music.    It may not be for getting a chiptune once this Deflemask stuff gets going, but for the act of writing a song, these things tend to work better.

Abso-frickin-lutely!

Modern tools are wonderful for creating real music, and for modern CD/DVD based consoles, or even for MIDI and sample-based sound drivers like the game-professional's choice ... FMOD (which has nothing to do with a tracker).

Huelsbeck and such aren't even trackering nowadays.

I might point out that they aren't creating MML music for 30-year-old consoles, either! 

In theory, you could use 3MLE to write songs in MML with a piano roll.  It has an on-screen keyboard, and might do MIDI input. 

...

It's pretty straightforward.   It's a shame there's no PCE sounds with it, though.   It's all MIDI.   

It seems to be the best-solution that's available if you want to create MML in something with a reasonably-modern interface. I've certainly not seen any mention of a better tool being available.

That could be a really good way to lay out your basic MML tracks.

But then what?

To actually get envelopes and waveforms and vibrato and glides and percussion and ... all the things that really go into making your basic note-sequence sound good on the PCE ...

... that will actually work with the System Card Player ...

... you've got to export from 3MLE into a text format, and add all of the extras by-hand into a text file, without being able to interactively preview it and modify it on-the-fly.

"Yes", it can be done that way, and it can be done well. It's definitely possible.

But who-on-earth would really *want* to do things that way, if they had another choice???


BTW ... deflemask does (apparently) support input from a MIDI keyboard.

[Michirin9801]

I've never had great luck getting any of my VSTs to work with a tracker.  It sucks.  MilkyTracker and reNoise would just go retarded.

In theory, you could use 3MLE to write songs in MML with a piano roll.  It has an on-screen keyboard, and might do MIDI input. 

It's pretty straightforward.   It's a shame there's no PCE sounds with it, though.   It's all MIDI.

I've also tried reNoise and yeah, it's awful...
But I don't need either reNoise or FL Studio because OpenMPT also supports VSTs! But the only VST I still use is C700, and I only use it to rip SNES samples, the VST can export the samples to the .xi format supported by OpenMPT, then I can just compose a song like normal with SNES samples... But if I wanted to I could also use MIDI instruments with OpenMPT (which I've done once) and export a MIDI file, and heck, I could just sample whatever wavetables I wanted from Deflemask and use them in OpenMPT to make PCE sounding stuff and export a MIDI of it to turn into MML! (Or use Chip32 which I'm honestly not a fan of)

I just think it's pointless for me to learn FL Studio or 3MLE to do the same things that I can already do on OpenMPT, as I said, if or when I go the MML route, I'll just use OpenMPT to compose whatever I need to compose...

[Arkhan]

I've never had great luck getting any of my VSTs to work with a tracker.  It sucks.  MilkyTracker and reNoise would just go retarded.

In theory, you could use 3MLE to write songs in MML with a piano roll.  It has an on-screen keyboard, and might do MIDI input. 

It's pretty straightforward.   It's a shame there's no PCE sounds with it, though.   It's all MIDI.

I've also tried reNoise and yeah, it's awful...
But I don't need either reNoise or FL Studio because OpenMPT also supports VSTs! But the only VST I still use is C700, and I only use it to rip SNES samples, the VST can export the samples to the .xi format supported by OpenMPT, then I can just compose a song like normal with SNES samples... But if I wanted to I could also use MIDI instruments with OpenMPT (which I've done once) and export a MIDI file, and heck, I could just sample whatever wavetables I wanted from Deflemask and use them in OpenMPT to make PCE sounding stuff and export a MIDI of it to turn into MML! (Or use Chip32 which I'm honestly not a fan of)

I just think it's pointless for me to learn FL Studio or 3MLE to do the same things that I can already do on OpenMPT, as I said, if or when I go the MML route, I'll just use OpenMPT to compose whatever I need to compose...

Hmm, I never had fantastic luck with VSTs in OpenMPT, but I also haven't tried since maybe 2002 or so.  Some of them would just crash the software, or they sounded awful.   Also, the interfaces for them covered up the columns, which made that a bad time in the first place, lol.

My perspective about using a DAW stem more from assuming you might want to make music outside of the confines of the chiptune world.  Trackers are not exactly fantastic for that sort of thing. 

Abso-frickin-lutely!

Modern tools are wonderful for creating real music, and for modern CD/DVD based consoles, or even for MIDI and sample-based sound drivers like the game-professional's choice ... FMOD (which has nothing to do with a tracker).

Yeah, this is part of why I sort of went this route, as it also tends to be more comfortable since I can use things I was playing with anyways.

I might point out that they aren't creating MML music for 30-year-old consoles, either! 

Agreed, but, I can't say I see them going and dealing with trackers straight up these days.  If they had to go do chipstuff again, I would expect that they would compose elsewhere and import into Deflemask, or ProTracker, or whatever. 

Though, their musical backgrounds would make the conversion easier.

... you've got to export from 3MLE into a text format, and add all of the extras by-hand into a text file, without being able to interactively preview it and modify it on-the-fly.

"Yes", it can be done that way, and it can be done well. It's definitely possible.

But who-on-earth would really *want* to do things that way, if they had another choice???

3MLE files are already simple text files.  You can open a 3MLE file in Notepad and be presented with what you were looking at in 3MLE already.  This helps.  To go from 3MLE to Squirrel you just copy paste the text from 3MLE's template to Squirrels.  I've debated writing a utility to do it for people. 

But, for me, I've hotkey'd Geany to launch a "go.bat" file that rebuilds and launches the player so I can hear the song in it's current state.   It's hardly any slower than hitting play in a tracker, so the only thing you really lose is being able to smack at the waveform.

Honestly, it's minimally tedious to hear the parts of the songs I want to hear, and you tend to know if an envelope or waveform sucks balls by about the 3rd note anyways.   I'm constantly just changing values and pressing F5 and having it start blaring out of the headphones pretty quickly

BTW ... deflemask does (apparently) support input from a MIDI keyboard.

Is it any good at it?   I'm tempted to at least try it.  Usually, the midi input on a tracker is not so great.   You either get balls latency, or it just sucks.  Especially if you're doing the whole polyphony thing.

[DarkKobold]

So, where is this at?

[Arkhan]

So, where is this at?

In my pants.   

[elmer]

So, where is this at?

It's going to be at least few months to get the driver solid, and playing back a decent subset of Deflemask's effects, or even longer if Delek decides not to help out with some information about his effect-processing.

And when the Xanadu dub starts and I'm needed again on that, then everthing else will be shelved until that's done. That project is my top-priority.

If you're really itching to get finished on Catastrophy, then IMHO your best option is to try to get Arkhan to do the tunes/sfx in Squirrel (running in the vblank), and then see if he can figure out how you can play those extra samples that you want.

If Arkhan doesn't have the time/interest, and you can wait a few months for sound, then this *will* get done to at-least a usable-if-not-perfect level. It isn't rocket-science, just finicky.

[elmer]

Quick question for you music folks ...

What-on-earth do you guys *practically* use the row-speed effects commands 09xx and 0Fxx for in Deflemask?

I can see that fragmare used a regular pattern of alternating 0903/0902 settings to achieve a 260 BPM tempo ... ((225 BPM + 300 BPM) / 2)

But apart for a regular repeating pattern like that throughout a song, have you folks used, or seen them used, in any other fashion?

How about just for part of a song, or for a single row?

<edit>

The reason why I'm asking is that I'm considering just stripping them out of the pattern data, and using a repeating set of of 4 or 8 values, like the 2 (even/odd) now, but providing more granularity.

A set of 8 values would allow 1/60s changes in the length of a 1/4 note ... which seems about as fine a tempo control as we're going to get while still running the driver in the vblank every 1/60s.

[Arkhan]

My guess is people would use it for strange and/or syncopated tempos, and that's about it.

[Michirin9801]

Quick question for you music folks ...

What-on-earth do you guys *practically* use the row-speed effects commands 09xx and 0Fxx for in Deflemask?

I can see that fragmare used a regular pattern of alternating 0903/0902 settings to achieve a 260 BPM tempo ... ((225 BPM + 300 BPM) / 2)

But apart for a regular repeating pattern like that throughout a song, have you folks used, or seen them used, in any other fashion?

How about just for part of a song, or for a single row?

<edit>

The reason why I'm asking is that I'm considering just stripping them out of the pattern data, and using a repeating set of of 4 or 8 values, like the 2 (even/odd) now, but providing more granularity.

A set of 8 values would allow 1/60s changes in the length of a 1/4 note ... which seems about as fine a tempo control as we're going to get while still running the driver in the vblank every 1/60s.

Well, we generally use it so that we can get different tempos than the ones supported natively in hardware without having to change the clock speed you know, but there are a few more uses to that, for example, one that I've used in one of my songs for my game's OST is the same one used in this song:

around 00:10 you can hear a 'break' in the song's tempo for a short while, the way I've replicated that is that for half a pattern I've used 09xx to get a faster tempo, and then I broke the pattern and returned to the original tempo with the 09xx effect in the next pattern

I've also started using the patterns of 09xx and 0Fxx effects in order to get my desired tempos because I realised that changing the clock speeds to get my tempo isn't exactly gonna work in real hardware, especially not in a proper game, and changing the tempo this way is the next best thing...