Help with crappy Dreamcast system

[Michael Helgeson]

I really liked the Dreamcast pad,never had any probs playing games with it.

[termis]

But yeah, GD-ROM discs can go bad after awhile, and I don't know why.  Happened with my original copy of Shenmue and now with Daytona.  Both games I bought brand new when they were released and I store them in the cases vertically on the shelf where strong light is never on them.  There is a halogen light in the room, but I don't think it's strong enough to rot GD-ROMS through their cases.

That's just weird man, I probably would've tried those discs that went bonkers on another DC to see if the problem lies on the discs or the machine - I'd wager my money on the machine.

Anyway, hope you get things working for good one way or another.

And I agree with you, the DC controllers are total crap. What the hell were they thinking?  (actually, after having procured a Analog saturn controller recently, I see where it came from.)    But yeah, the thing is way too narrow, and it's positioned so that your wrists sorta have to "wrap" around the controller and that's just not very comfy.   And ditto for the lack of 6 face buttons -> Tis' why I also happen to have the same saturn-dc controller converter you're talking about.

[Keranu]

I like Dreamcast pads. They look pretty stupid, but they feel nice on my hands and are a lot better than Playstation's, in my opinion.

[SignOfZeta]

Dreamcast discs don't "wear out". Seriously, WTF?

For a Sega system the DC is very unreliable. Also, I seem to have a vague memory of some of the more overproduced games like Crazy Tazi, and Jet Set being quasi-defective, and not playing in certain systems. I'd wager your system is dying and losing its ability to play less than perfectly pressed games like these.

I actually have a US launch DC with shitloads of hours on it. I cleared the Sakura Wars Complete Box 3 times, Skies of Arcadia, Shenmue 1 and 2, and logged insane hours with PSO, Sega GT, F355, Ikaruga, Mars Matrix, Test Drive LeMans, SFIII:TS, and more. At this point I actually wouldn't be pissed if it died because its earned its eternal rest, but it keeps going.

Just get another DC. They are so cheap, and so worth it. The DC was my dream come true for a game system. I so love that thing.

The controler though, no matter what anyone says, is a huge piece of f*cking shit. Furthermore, it seems even worse than the huge piece of f*cking shit that it is when you compare it to both the Saturn original pad, and analog pad, both of which are amazing. There is no excuse...none. The buttons are too few, too small. The d-pad is asymmetrical (WTF!?!), the analog's deadspot is almost half its range, and the position it forces your hands into for driving games is seriously painful. I use Saturn adaptors, fighting sticks, steering wheels...maracas...whatever I can, whenever possible.

[Joe Redifer]

Dreamcast discs don't "wear out". Seriously, WTF?

Well I can't figure out why my DC just wants to stop reading select games like these, but will read other copies of the same games and every other game in my DC library just fine with no probs (other than the recent freezing on Shenmue).  My DC is also a launch DC with lots of hours and has never given me any problems until recently.  LaserDiscs rot, why not some weird proprietary hybrid half-assed high-density format like GD-ROM?

And I will try the discs on another system, but I don't see anyone with a Dreamcast for months at a time.

[Keranu]

I don't see what's so hard to believe that Dreamcast discs could wear out. My Dreamcast usually plays games just fine, but the two Jet Grind Radio CDs I have been through would always get stuck on a loading screen.

[Joe Redifer]

Well I cranked the laser up just a tad more and I was able to get my old Shenmue discs working, but Daytona USA still didn't.  So I cranked the laser up more, and then the DC decided to not even spin the discs.  So back down it went.  Right now I'd say it's around 25% more than it was originally.  I'm still going to get another DC for the spare GD-ROM unit and I'd also like to resurface my Daytona.

How does resurfacing work, anyway?

[Michael Helgeson]

Dreamcast discs don't "wear out". Seriously, WTF?

Well I can't figure out why my DC just wants to stop reading select games like these, but will read other copies of the same games and every other game in my DC library just fine with no probs (other than the recent freezing on Shenmue).  My DC is also a launch DC with lots of hours and has never given me any problems until recently.  LaserDiscs rot, why not some weird proprietary hybrid half-assed high-density format like GD-ROM?

And I will try the discs on another system, but I don't see anyone with a Dreamcast for months at a time.

Exactly,and there is a very good posibility that DC games can rot too. Oxidation could occur and the damage wouldnt actually be visible to the eye for years.

[Michael Helgeson]

Well I cranked the laser up just a tad more and I was able to get my old Shenmue discs working, but Daytona USA still didn't.  So I cranked the laser up more, and then the DC decided to not even spin the discs.  So back down it went.  Right now I'd say it's around 25% more than it was originally.  I'm still going to get another DC for the spare GD-ROM unit and I'd also like to resurface my Daytona.

How does resurfacing work, anyway?

Depends on the cd buffer used. Older units have  a turning wheel and spinning plates. They use a 3-5 step process where they replace sanding pads on the wheels with a polishing pad to polish the sanded disc off. Other ones do a process like this but also use water and operate in a enclosed area.

[SignOfZeta]

OK, first off CDs don't 'wear out'. Ever. They may someday disintegrate to dust, but not from use. Playing a CD has zero effect on the CD itself whatsoever. Things that 'wear out': clothes, tires, toilet paper. Things that don't wear out: flower pots, windows, and CDs (they can all be broken, but used properly are effectively immortal by human standards until some one breaks them)

Also, resurfacing isn't the issue since that is a process of smoothing out scratches in the read side of the CD. If you were careful enough to not put at scratches on the CD, you'll never need this process. If there are scratches on the CD then...its obviously not the fault of any rot, or lasers, or whatever. Some jackass just scratched the CD.

Laser rot is the very misunderstood and overrated. Its also a thousand more times more rare than the internet makes it out to be.

Laserdiscs rot because of a chemical reaction where the two sides of the LD are glued together. Its not really something that happens over time (for the most part) but a manufacturing defect. Certain LDs have been known to be all rotted out the day they were released. Sometimes it takes a couple of years. As far as I know a perfectly produced LD basically will never rot. I've never had an LD with rot, and I have some that are very close to 20 years old.

Now a similar thing can happen with normal single sided optical discs. The reflective aluminum layer either oxidizes because the lacquering process didn't turn out, or sometimes because of actual gaps in the lacquer. In this case you usually end up with "pinholes", which are actually visible disintegration of the aluminum. I have one CD with a nasty pinhole in it that actually plays fine. This is because divots in the acrylic are the actual info, the aluminum is just a reflective aid. The newest CD I have with a pinhole is from 1990, which leads me to believe that the CD making process is all but perfected these days.

While the DC does have a unique disc format, the unique part is done with at the point of mastering. Nothing is different as far as the stamping, laminating, etc phases so I don't see any reason to believe your DC games have pinholes.

I think the best theory is like I said before: the games were less than perfect in the first place, but good enough to be read by your DC. In the meanwhile your DC has degraded and now can't read the dodgy discs. Well, reading your new posts I guess it can't read anything now. This isn't exactly rare since DC drives are junk from what I've seen. The other most common defect (at least from what I've seen in DCs my friends own) is actually the common fault of the controller boards blowing out. This seems to be caused by hot plugging ASCI's otherwise amazing arcade stick. NCS posted a fix for this years ago that involved (I think) soldering a resister into the controller board to protect from the voltage spike. Sort of like a clamping diode in a car. I never bothered since I don’t use an ASCI stick, and even if the board did blow out it is sadly very easy to find DCs with good boards in them...because of all the ones with dead drives in them.

Anway, I'd bet money that most (if not all) of your "worn out" games would play great on my DC (assuming that they aren't scratched).

[Joe Redifer]

   They may someday disintegrate to dust, but not from use.

I think I said that I hadn't played the game for more than 6 months.  Back then, it worked 100% perfectly, and then I put it on the shelf.  The game remained there and the Dreamcast remained off for that greater-than-6 month period.  Then I pull out the game again and it does not work at all.  Maybe the game is disintegrating?  Heh, I dunno.  But I'm 95% sure the problem is the game disc. 

  Well, reading your new posts I guess [your Dreamcast] can't read anything now.

It can't?  OH SHIT!  Oh wait, yes it can.  Keep reading my previous posts.

   Anway, I'd bet money that most (if not all) of your "worn out" games would play great on my DC (assuming that they aren't scratched).

Well right now the only game that doesn't run is Daytona.

[termis]

Well, looks like that's an improvement 

Anyway Joe - a separate question since you said you got a modchip in your DC.  Can you warm-boot your import games - i.e. Say from the CD menu once your system is on, or on multi-disc games when the game prompts you to change the disc?

I can't on mine - I always gotta cold-boot.  It's always been a point that's been annoying me, but I'm not sure if the latest modchips resolved this issue or not (I'd pry shell out for it if it did).  And I have the 4-wire version, which is supposedly the latest version, but I installed mine like 6 years ago...

[Michael Helgeson]

Well I agree the rot issue was a tad over rated on LDs,except for the Discovision timeline,most any others I got from 85 on up were fine,except soem of the crappy Sony manufactured rotters.

As for cd rotting,Ive had about 16-18 cds go bad from rot. They were purchased in the early 90ies,but were pressings from the early to mid 80ies,on up to late 80ies. The oxidization didnt cause pin holes on mine or flaking aluminium as others have told me they experienced. For the first couple of years the audio just started to go bad,disc had problems playing,but disc looked perfect. Eventually in 98 when I went back and got rid of the bad cds,some of them started to brown or dis color in ugly rainbow patterns on the aluminum layer on the read area.

Some of these disc I was actually able to get replaced,as they were classical music cds from a certain company,but I dont remember which. Appearently I was not the only person who had this occur,because I got the replacement info from a new and used local music store who was doing the same with some of theirs that went bad from the same company and a couple others. I didnt even have to mail in the bad disc,just the paper inserts for proof of purchase along with a replacement form. Some of these cds were from the mid 80ies and the jewel cases came in long cardboard boxes. Some of the cds,like early Cure,Blondie,ect stuff I couldnt get replaced,as there was no replacement offer in affect for them by the music companies who manufactured the cds..I no longer even collect music cds now,I stopped around 2003 and sold everything except the Lost Highway soundrack,and some KMFDM and Ministry cds.

[Joe Redifer]

Multi-disc imports work fine, like Shenmue 2.  But then again Shenmue 2 creates a save file when you finish a disc and resets to the screen... but that is still a "warm boot" right?

Lemme go try to boot Ikaruga from the system screen after it is on.  I'll be back before I finish typing this post with the eagerly anticipated results!!!!!  And the result is:  no.  Ikaruga won't boot from the system menu screen.  I've never noticed this, but then again I have never in my entire time of owning a Dreamcast had a reason to boot from the system menu screen.  Oh well, if you are messing with the VMU or the DC's HORRIBLE CD player (the worst to be included with any game system evar), just quickly power off and then back on.

[termis]

Multi-disc imports work fine, like Shenmue 2.  But then again Shenmue 2 creates a save file when you finish a disc and resets to the screen... but that is still a "warm boot" right?

IIRC, I think the Shemue games (I have JP Shenmue 1 and PAL Shenmue 2) allow you to save your game, then it goes to the disc swap screen.  You can then open up your GD player, but the game doesn't go to the main menu like it normally would - it still stays on in the disc swap screen, and when you insert the next disc, it's supposed to load straight to the next part - basically, no rebooting at all required - warm or cold.  But in my case, I had to save the game, and when I inserted the disc, it wouldn't load the next disc - I had to turn the system off, then get going on the next part that way.

Well, anyway.  It looks like I'm not the only one with this minor symptom anyway.  I can live with it.  Thanks for lettin' me know.