Author Topic: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?  (Read 3191 times)

Arkhan

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 11:21:10 AM »
I don't think calling the game resume padding, and referring to the art as 10th grader material is very respectful...

but like I said, some words went back and forth, everything got defused, and after that little scuffle emerged some more helpful criticism.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 11:24:35 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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nodtveidt

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2009, 11:35:31 AM »
Well, that's standard fare for gamefaqs. :D

Tom

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 11:44:32 AM »
Criticism is criticism. I've experienced and seen some down right bold and/or not holding back, seriously cold criticism (not program related, but creative related). There's nothing wrong with that IMO. It has its place and it has its purpose. Sometimes (if not all the time) you really need it as part of the corrective process (really depends on your level of skill). People passing hollow comments like "good job" when they really don't mean, hurt more than anything else - when you're not looking for hollow praise. There is a threshold though and you learn to ignore certain criticism just because it's beyond your control. What I don't like, and has no reason for being, it making fun or snide remarks or just plain talking shit. Even if it's semi private or fully private. There's no excuse for it. You know who you are. That just out right make you a dick, nothing less and probably a lot more. There are homebrew dev out there that I don't care for or is just not my style, or does anything for me. But I never make fun of someone else's hard work.

 Like Nodt said; If you've got objective criticism, let's hear it. If it's beyond our control to correct, then it'll be ignored (because there is nothing we can do about it). But if it *is* something that can be fixed, and we see valid points or multiple opinions on the same matter - then we can try to make whatever correction within our limits at this point.

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Arkhan

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 11:47:43 AM »
Yeah more or less.  At least the whole situation blew over in a matter of what a day? :) 

@Tom:  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 11:49:56 AM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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Keranu

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 04:58:16 PM »
Quote from: Emerald Rocker / Zigfried
For anyone who's curious, this drama began when Mysterious Song was recently hyped at message boards across the internet.  On one particular board, someone outside of the usual PCEFX crowd looked at the screenshots and expressed his dislike of those screens (as well as providing reasons).  This person was treated like an aberration.  Someone even implied he's not a "true" hardcore Turbo/PCE fan because he wasn't interested in Mysterious Song like "everyone else was".

Way to blow things out of proportion. For everyone's reading reference, the thread is here. Read it and tell me if any of us tore lxcainxl (the person Emerald is referring to above) apart for his criticism. He spoke in a respectable enough matter and Nod and I responded in a similar manner. And despite what you say, Zig, his criticism still wasn't that specific: simply saying "the art is out of proportion" is not enough to let us know what needs fixed. Saying our game isn't "professional" doesn't cut it either, and if MSR is as unprofessional as he claimed, then I don't think Super Fighter Team would have contacted us about publishing our game. Again we welcome criticism and urge it, or else this thread wouldn't be here in the first place nor would we have corrected any criticism that was brought to our attention in the past (like the old cinemas, the item drop option, animated water tiles, etc...).

And as far as the criticism you provided, which you interpreted by a beta tester's review, regarding the short length and high level grinding, I already cleared that up in the GameFAQs thread. If you have any other criticism, please let us know.

What I don't like, and has no reason for being, it making fun or snide remarks or just plain talking shit. Even if it's semi private or fully private. There's no excuse for it. You know who you are. That just out right make you a dick, nothing less and probably a lot more. There are homebrew dev out there that I don't care for or is just not my style, or does anything for me. But I never make fun of someone else's hard work.

Exactly. Zig claims he's "supporting" us by keeping silent, but he has been mocking and making sarcastic remarks about this project since day one. If this project doesn't interest him like he says, then he doesn't have to obsessively read all the posts regarding it and making sly 'innocent' comments like he has been. It's this kind of attitude that can't help make me believe that he's jealous of our work, because lets face it, every gamer dreams of making their own game at some point or another. Some people don't realize that making your own games IS possible and if Zig ever decides to pick up game design, I'll be there to support him all the way.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 11:09:37 PM by Keranu »
Quote from: Bonknuts
Adding PCE console specific layer on top of that, makes for an interesting challenge (no, not a reference to Ys II).

nectarsis

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 05:01:43 PM »
7 deleted posts in row don't help that thread posterity much ;)
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SignOfZeta

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 05:02:50 PM »
I haven't said much about Mysterious Song, but I have thought a bit about it, so I'll say some things now since the topic came up.

There are a lot of things about what I've seen so far that don't really do it for me, but I really want to see stuff like this come out so in the big picture the good massively outweighs the bad.

The art...doesn't do it for me. It does looks pretty "junior high margin" to me. Could I do better? Yeah, actually. Will I? Hell no, I'm way too f*cking lazy! Whatever makes it into an actual game is automatically better than shit that doesn't even exist. Also, I'm a bit wary of pre-ordering when it seems like everything is a placeholder, or "not final version", or whatever and the development cycle has already been so long.

What does do it for me is the fact that its a real Japanese style RPG, and its home brew for a system that has no official dev tools. I can do graphics and music and other stuff but I simply cannot program. I tried to get into it. Its just an alien language to me. Worse than an alien language. Its just pure gibberish. The fact that an actual game is being made for a system like the PCE in people's spare time is just amazing to me. Even though I have personal problems with some of the staff, I'm really happy for you guys, and the scene, to see this being done.

I have a sort of secret hope that once this is done you would be able to crank out sequels, side stories, whatever using all of the same code except for graphics, music, script, just like official developers did with legit releases back in the day. Or, that you will release the source so that other people can do it.

Arkhan

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 05:04:03 PM »
well I tore into cain some for saying the game was resume padding and that the art looked like something a 10th grader cooked up, followed by mocking the professionalism of the game...since that's not really respectful criticism, it's just rude...

we exchanged words for a few posts and then let everything go since it was a giant pile of crap.  Nodt cleared things up regarding the art being 'stand in', along with some other stuff and the result was the useful criticism that came from it...

It needed to be cleared up, since it was part of the reason things were said.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 05:11:13 PM by Arkhan »
[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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termis

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2009, 07:01:34 PM »
I can only comment on the limited screenshots I've seen, but as far as what I don't like: the cinema style isn't particularly my cup o' tea.  I think a full-on western style art would've suited my tastes better (or full-on Japanese style, whichever).

My likes: background art, I think that's pretty awesome.  And a new JRPG for the Turbo/PCE -- I'm there.

Bottom line: I was excited enough to cough up for the pre-order.

Tom

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2009, 05:59:21 AM »
I can do graphics and music and other stuff but I simply cannot program.

 Then you can get into a group, or form you own. You don't have to be the programmer and the programmer doesn't have to be the groups leader/main person. It might not PCE scene, but there's plenty of systems out there - from the 16bit era. PCE requires some serious programmers to do anything... well, serious/fast/flashy/etc projects. C doesn't cut it for PCE. And even basic ASM knowledge really isn't enough if you're trying to push the system. You've really got to cut your teeth on this style processor and system. SNES really scene isn't in much better shape either. The CPU's banking/memory layout that Nintendo added on top of the CPU's existing design, doesn't exact make it C friendly/optimized either.

 Genesis on the other hand, has a processor built for C. And I know of one person personally building a graphic/music library for GCC in all ASM (no, it's not Pier Solar team). You can do a serious project in C with no inline ASM help for Genesis. Ecco the Dolphin was actually written in C, before C compilers were even optimized as they are now. Anyway, my point is; is that anyone can learn C and many programmer already know it. So your chances getting a group together for a Genesis homebrew project are going to increase exponentially once this library is finished. There's your chance. The only downside is the server color limit. It's such a bitch. I know, 'cause I've done some Genesis dev ;)

 Finding a PCE programmer for any serious PCE assembly language project (and one that has time): pretty damn slim. Well, unless you can convince some NES hardcore coders to come over to the PCE - but good luck on that (because they're hardcore NES guys. Like us, they do it out of love for their system). Finding a programmer for the Genesis that already has experience in C: pretty decent.

 Others might ask, why not just go PC instead? Well, where's the fun in that!? Anyway, now I'm pushing this thread offtopic....

Emerald Rocker

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2009, 06:23:04 AM »
For the record, Rover and I have agreed to disagree.

Tom, I agree with most of your post.  One big problem happens when a critic who cares (as opposed to a dismissive critic) voices an opinion and feels it is ignored.  They will escalate their tone, making the complaint harsher, in an effort to get a real response.  Creators usually don't like that, so the end result is that everyone gets mad and calls each other dicks.  I've seen that happen so many times in so many fields.  That's not what happened here.  I don't have a personal connection to MS or any of the designers.  I haven't even played the game, all I have to go on are screenshots and hearsay.  Most criticism comes after the game is already published and beyond the point of correction.  If you're the kind of guy who can pull the positives from even the harshest feedback, and put that towards the future, then I wish you only the best.

Keranu, you and I have not chatted in years, so stop acting like an authority with this "mocking and sarcastic remarks" stuff.  If I've been spreading such unsupportive messages about Mysterious Song since day one, then why were my recent comments noteworthy enough to warrant a topic and shocked outrage?  You appear to have misinterpreted my comment about "people staying silent out of politeness [about the art]" as meaning "we silent people all revealed ourselves to each other, and have been sitting in chatrooms making fun of you".

That's not what "silent" means.
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ParanoiaDragon

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2009, 09:45:59 AM »
I'll go on record to say, that I'm probably one of the biggest reasons that this & our 3 other games(well, one is all Lord_Cack's, so I haven't pushed the issue much) have been pushed back so much.  First, Nod was gonna release this game on is own  5 years ago, I listened to the music, & offered to spice it up a little.  Then, with this & every other game(Neutopia 3 & 1 of our 2 soon to be announced projects), I always come around & say "can we change this, can we add paralax here, what if we added this, how about better water animation, can this be moved over here, etc.?".  I'm always the guy to push things further, which means things getting revised.  For example, our secret project was supposed to be a small game that we were going to release while still working on MSR & N3 to whet people's appetites.  I came along & turned it into a full game with all my questions & suggestions.  I do take blame for this, as it's made us redo the games gfx several times.

After that, we have gained & lost atleast a couple of members.  We had some disargreements with Dev X, & Seldane hasn't been around much, if at all on the internet.  I can't recall if there was anyone else.  But even then, we all have had our share of problems in life, Nod, Dev X, & Lord_Cack especially, & then more recently Black Tiger has been going thru some difficulties.  When we had Dev X for instance, he lost his home at one point out in New Orleans, so, life always finds a way to interfere, but, even without Dev X & Sel, we've found a way to continue with our work, now to the breaking point of releasing this game finally.  The core of the group has remained & stuck with it thru thick & thin!

And ofcoarse, as I stated above about other games we're working on, those have also gotten in the way of completely finishing MSR, for various reasons though right now, we're doing nothing BUT MSR, with exception to Lorc_Cack working on his main project when he doesn't have anything to do on MSR, & me, since I'm done with MSR, I have my own little project I'm working on, partly out of love for the TG, but also partly to continue to hone my skills in music for our next game, of which I have roughly half done musically, but would like to expand a little more(as usual) upon.  Not to mention, I really want to make N3 killer in the ost department, though I know I'm not, & never will be up to par with Ryo Yonemitsu, JDK Band, Yuzo Koshiro, or any of the guy's of T's Music, I'm certinaly gonna try. 

The hardest part is incorporating live instruments into the songs, though, I don't want to overdue that either.  Some games overdo the guitar, hopefully I won't.  But, even then you can't please everybody, it's impossible.  I've found that there are even instruments that fit songs perfectly to me but to someone else, they might hate that particular instrument for whatever reason, so I have to make difficult choices in that respect.

Arkhan

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2009, 12:52:32 PM »
Theres no such thing as overdoing the guitar!

 :-"

[Fri 19:34]<nectarsis> been wanting to try that one for awhile now Ope
[Fri 19:33]<Opethian> l;ol huge dong

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esteban

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2009, 02:26:24 PM »
2-cent observations:

1. Gamefaqs.
2. Drama.
3. I still can't believe any of us post at Gamefaqs.

4. I've said this before and I'll say it again: I don't mind waiting. We should not worry about timeframes for homebrew projects, since there will always be unanticipated complications. It would be healthier if we simply said to ourselves: "Game X will be released in the next decade, give or take a few years."

5. PCE MS has simply improved over time. Personally, I am glad that this project has evolved and changed. It has made it more special and endearing.

6. I don't mind waiting. I suspect that MS may actually be released in 2012. I don't mind. :)

7. There is no way to please everyone.

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SignOfZeta

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Re: So then...what sucks about Mysterious Song?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2009, 04:07:56 PM »
Yeah, GameFAQS...QEF?

The only reason why I even look at the forums there is when a new Super Robot Wars game comes out and I need info before an actual FAQ comes out. This is a pretty rare occasion. I do have a log in, but its probably been ten years since I used it.

Most of the time the place is second only to Youtube on the "holy shit I can't believe people this ignorant and f*cked up exist" scale.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 08:21:19 PM by SignOfZeta »